WiiWare...

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by Adrian Cummings, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Having worked previously for a developer who now only shovels their very poor PS2 games over to the Wii I can vouch for there not being much quality control going on. They're selling well and making lots of cash but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids ending up with these budget titles that last literally an hour or two. There's no reworking of the artwork, just some crowbarred in motion controls.
     
  2. Adrian Cummings

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    Nasty, but where there is money in this business there is always muck! LOL :)
     
    #62 Adrian Cummings, Nov 26, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2007
  3. cyrus_zuo

    cyrus_zuo New Member

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    There seem to be two points in this thread, both of which seem to be getting emotional support and little else.

    1 - Nintendo has crappy games on the Wii.
    2 - Nintendo's WiiWare isn't open enough.

    To point one, I agree. However, the same can be said of every good console. The more consoles that sell, the more games that become available and the more bad games are released. I also could argue that the Wii is by far the most enjoyable console I've owned right back to my first console the 2600...but then I'd be just furthering the emotional argument. Honestly, I don't see the point of arguing point one...at least not in this forum. Seems like a thread that should be happening on GameSpot or some other kiddie site where pissing matches over who has the best console are encouraged.

    To point two, I'm on the fence. On the one hand WiiWare is far more open than the other consoles downloadable stuff. In fact it is so open that it is facilitates crappy games being released through WiiWare, and I'm on the fence until I see how much crap is released and how the restrictiveness of the program changes. It might be fun for WiiWare to be even more open, but I also think being more open than it already is might be really bad. At Reflexive we receive 100+ game submissions every month. Game Tunnel gets 30+. There is often very little cross-over and a tremendous amount of garbage...sometimes even after you skim off the top games. I don't want a system where I have to dig through all of that. I like having restrictions that make it hard for the hobbyist to put a game on the system, but easy for businesses to do so. The argument could be made that it is too hard for small, but legitimate businesses currently, but I've only seen one circumstance where I might agree, and I'm not sure I do.

    The bigger question I think might be: Will WiiWare be profitable?
    I'm somewhat on the fence about that one, but I do believe it will be a better venue for certain game types than the internet, and it is very likely to be a very good secondary venue for games that are already successful on the Internet. It's about reaching out to additional audience, and WiiWare will do that. The only questions are who is that audience and what are their buying habits.
     
  4. Adrian Cummings

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    Theres a lot of fence sitting in there :)

    I think it matters not what I say here really so I won't add any more moaning banter and perhaps we should see when WiiWare releases next year what is actually going to be on it in the first 6 months.

    Some of it will be crap and some of it will be brilliant tho neither has anything to do with me and what I planned to put on it (or not now in my case anyway).

    The interesting thing to note here is, is some of the 'possible' crap will all be from bonafide developers thats for sure - as it's only them can get on it in the first place!, but like art I guess 'crap' is also in the eye of the beholder so who am I to judge eh - nobody.
     
  5. Bobuido

    Bobuido New Member

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    OK, let me set some things straight

    It's not a childish pissing match. The thread is "WiiWare" not "I love to polish my Wii and slag off M$" Yes I do come off like a raving fan boy but my feelings towards Nintendo are pretty irrelevant TBH. While I may have strayed, the core purpose is - Collecting and discussing information on WW development.

    I only mentioned the "quality" issue because people keep blaming these restrictions on quality control. I didn't come here to tell you how much I love my Wii and how much better it is than the other big two. That was a by-product of comments people threw back at me. I came here to find out as much as I could about WiiWare and people's experiences with it. If this isn't the forum for that, please direct me to a more suitable one. I do apologise if I got a little bit carried away. I do love a long rant! :)

    The fact of the matter is, you're suppressing development and therefore creativity and innovation. This world is about numbers. A better way of saying it is the old "if you throw enough mud, some of it is bound to stick" What is the problem with having a mountain of crap to navigate through? I do it already with the Wii discs. I do it with the Internet. In fact, I have to navigate through crap in every facet of my life!

    Give people the choice. Create an online review and ranking system. Job done. If ESRB do the ratings, what exactly are Nintendo too busy with? The virtual console has a most downloaded section. That would be a good start for WiiWare.

    I thought the whole idea of WiiWare was to give smaller dev groups a simpler more affordable route to publishing games? To give some of the smaller studios a chance to earn some cash and / or make a name for themselves. I also thought having a large catalogue of options was something everyone wanted... :S Consumer and Business

    Sorry if I get emotional about something I'd love to be a part of but I don't think asking a bunch of teenagers about developing for WiiWare would get the same informed, intellectual response it got here

    Nintendo have made some smart decisions. Decisions that benefit the whole gaming industry. I guess I'm just shocked that this one seems in direct opposition. I guess an open console really is needed to help nurture new companies and devs.

    If this thread's getting emotional and boring then I'll try and leave it here. That said, I would appreciate any more_bits_of_info people have. I'll try and leave my Nintendo hat and chat at the door :)
     
  6. Spore Man

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    It's all business. Nintendo have it in their power to release a huge amount of NES, SNES, Genesis, Neo Geo and Turbografix 16 games all at once via their Virtual Console but instead they release only 3 every Monday. There's a strategy behind that. I'm sure WiiWare will be no different. Best to launch with a bang.

    Hey, anybody remember the Sony Yarouze program? $500 got you a Playstation development kit, CodeWarrior and some weak support.

    http://assembler.roarvgm.com/Yarouze/yarouze.html
     
  7. Bobuido

    Bobuido New Member

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    I agree

    Sadly some analyst has predicted what policies brings Nintendo the most money. Not sure that analyst was right but we'll never know

    Thing is VC and WW are different beasts
     
  8. cyrus_zuo

    cyrus_zuo New Member

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    I guess I don't see what you are trying to learn.

    The devs who are working with WiiWare are under NDA. WiiWare games aren't available yet so you can't talk about how it was financially beneficial or how it wasn't.

    The only things to be known are what has already been said.
    • It is easier for a small dev to get on WiiWare than PSN or XBLA
    • It is cheaper than PSN or XBLA
    • It currently has less restrictions than the other platforms
    • It isn't restriction free (for that you have to stay on computers)

    Do you want to discuss the business merits? Until it has been released I don't see any possible conversation there.

    The only thing that I see is left to discuss is our opinions on whether or not we agree with Nintendo's restrictions to get on the system, which tbh doesn't matter.

    If you are trying to put something on someone else's system you have to walk through their gates. If you hate gates, then don't go to someone else's system. Complaining about the gates seems a fruitless discussion.

    My frustration with most of this thread is that it's mostly uninformed opinion.

    I strongly recommend emailing Nintendo. It may be that they are stretched thin by the number of requests, but we've had nothing but fantastic discussions with them throughout. I wish they would divulge a little more and NDA a little less, then, I think, a better discussion could occur here about developing for WiiWare.

    As it is, I wouldn't say the last few pages of this discussion are any better than asking teenagers about developing on WiiWare. Perhaps worse if you presume those who are sharing their opinions here have experience in the process.
     
  9. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    That brings us back to what started it. You need office space to get accepted which I'm presuming Reflexive have. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason why they'd limit it to having an office. We work from home and our house is more secure than an office would be. For a start, it's always occupied.

    If they want to cut out the kind of kiddies who'd want to work on it why not charge a decent amount of dev kits? Or make the limitation that you have to have a 'proper' company set up?
     
  10. Bobuido

    Bobuido New Member

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    luggage

    It's no use dropping the office space requirement for the more expensive dev kits

    My point is not every developer or group of devs wants to risk thousands of pounds on their game. It should not be expensive to develop a simple arcade type game. Not today. It's up to the creators how they want to operate.

    $$$$$$$ is my problem / worry

    Getting people to reg a company isn't going to scare that many people off. Any that are probably needed to give up there anyway. So that's fine with me.

    cyrus_zuo

    Blunt

    I get it
    We don't know - You don't know
    Nintendo + Co know but... They aint tellin' (NDA)
    Stop theorising
    Bang on Nintendo's door or go home

    I think I'll go home - Don't reckon I'll know the handshake

    I don't think we were trying to learn anything. It was quite apparent Nintendo would not want someone as insignificant as me, quite a few posts ago. I guess we were just chatting...this seems to have bothered you though. Why is that?

    All I seem to get out of teenagers most of the time is gibberish. You really think this thread is that bad? I thought it was interesting enough and I learned a few things.

    You really hammered it home though

    You want me to shut up and never mention WiiWare again? Or just until we know more?
     
  11. cyrus_zuo

    cyrus_zuo New Member

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    I think it is worth discussing, but I would agree there isn't much to discuss at the moment.

    It is much easier to get your game (untampered) onto the Wii currently than any other console, and I think devs who can get involved should do so. I wouldn't be surprised if the ease changes over time.

    Until it does change, WiiWare is delivering on being far more open than anything else in the console world. Notably and clearly, WiiWare isn't comparable to PC when it comes to restrictiveness and I can't imagine that would ever change. We'd have to have an open source console for that to change, but I can't see any such console selling enough to be worth talking about (GP32X?).

    In order for a console to succeed it needs a big budget behind it, and I honestly think we are in a rather amazing time that people on this forum can be making games for consoles. It's even more amazing that on the Wii it can be done for a reasonable budget and with little content restrictions, putting it in reach of many who could never have dreamed of such a thing 3-4 years ago.
     
  12. Adrian Cummings

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    Well what a debate, though it's gone a little off track down the weeks heh :)

    The thing is for me at least, having worked with Nintendo several times before as I stated, is that there are other ways to reach the same goal if you really want to reach it that is - though that is something I'm not going to cover here, rather I was originally talking about how near impossible it was to get on with Nintendo at all as an indie dev working from home and not so much the possible revenue generation side of WiiWare.

    I stand by what I have said to date, but as for the numbers? I agree we will all have to see until WiiWare launches and what happens after that point.

    Either way it should be interesting to see what conspires to happen in due course.

    I don't see any harm talking about WiiWare here though (well those of us that don't have an NDA anyway) it's not the holy grail or anything is it?... And lastly to anybody in fact from here on in, if you don't want to 'talk' about it please do not post - yes? LOL
     
    #72 Adrian Cummings, Nov 27, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  13. luggage

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    No surprise.
     
  14. FlySim

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    I had a feeling this would happen and is the reason I did not pursue a Wii port.
    Fly casting mechanics would be great on a Wii.
     
  15. chanon

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    No surprise.

    The reason is that it has always been clear that Nintendo will not consider companies that don't have a proper office. It says so in the developer requirements at warioworld.com. (The guy admits the office problem here: http://www.xiotexstudios.com/wiiware-is-a-lie-redux/)

    But maybe they said something else at the 'WiiWare summit' or maybe they said it in a way that could be misunderstood .. thus his anger.
     
  16. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    The problem is there are some WiiWare developers who are working from home.
     
  17. Mattias Gustavsson

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    Really? That is the problem? Why? A company setting up some rules are at the liberty to allow exceptions to their own rules, aren't they? :rolleyes:
     
  18. luggage

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    Of course they are, but then don't be surprised that people aren't happy when they find out certain rules apply to them but not others.
     
    #79 luggage, Jun 6, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2008
  19. zombibubonik

    zombibubonik New Member

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    First of all I just want to say that I don't agree with Nintendo's policy here, I think they're a company taking steps in new directions for both themselves and the industry as a whole and I there's going to be decisions made that people will disagree with. However, Nintendo, like Sony and Microsoft, are a business and they're in this to not only make money but also protect their assets and the Wii hardware is one of those assets. While I may not agree with what they've decided I can stand back and look at the situation and see WHY they made that decision.

    Now as luggage said there have been several high-profile exceptions to the rule but it's my opinion that these exceptions are for publicity purposes; Nintendo are trying to depict themselves as embracing creativity and unique ideas, even if this isn't the reality for everyday developers and frankly I think they've done a good job of portraying this image for marketing and PR purposes.

    As for the story here, I don't think we can blame Nintendo for their decision. They laid out the requirements and this guy applied despite the fact he didn't meet those requirements and when he was rejected he went crying to the internet. Obviously as we are not Nintendo we aren't privy to any of the details of their selection process, for all we know they have their own reasons for rejecting him.

    I'd also like to say something that might be inflammatory, I think it's rather cheap of Bobuidoto start a discussion, disappear for months and then come running back to resurrect a long dead thread at the first sign of a negative story that reinforces his argument. Poor form, Bobuido.
     

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