When will games grow up!!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Musenik, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. Musenik

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  2. Acord

    Acord New Member

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    The majority of people on this planet do not act like the "adults" we all envisioned as children. Most people have an extremely skewed vision of "maturity" or being grown up.

    In this day and age? Not going to happen. It's a pointless endeavor. Nobody even tries to understand the things that happen in their lives. Everybody is a shallow meatbag undeserving of their next breath. Validating games as art, or validating ANYTHING as art, is just beyond pointless.

    Wanna crap out a game with a wavy line and then post a four page blog explaining how brilliant it is? How about making the title the instructions? Is it art if the explanation of it contains enough bull$hit to tint the users interaction?

    Stupid, pointless, shallow, vapid.
     
  3. jcottier

    jcottier New Member

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    It must be great being you!

    JC
     
  4. Acord

    Acord New Member

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    I wholly include myself in that statement.
     
  5. princec

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    Acord woke up on the "hate everybody" side of bed today :D
    I agree with him though.

    Cas :)
     
  6. 320x240

    320x240 New Member

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    The problem with 'games as art' is that art itself has been in a steady decline for a few hundred years already. What is called art today is just individual inventions put in front of a more or less indifferent audience. The layman knows this and therefore he doesn't care. I like this definition of art the best: "Art is what is exhibited in an art gallery." This does away with any romantic notion of a deeper meaning behind art and a lot of artists seem to agree with it - if not in theory then at least by their actions. Art needs to die before it can be reborn again and this dying is what we are witnessing in our relativistic times.

    Of course, maturity in games is an issue that is much greater than just the 'art as games' movement. There's no doubt that video games is a free zone for all that is low and inhumane in popular culture, because, whereas other forms of entertainment has grown out of an earlier cultures art, video games is popular cultures true child. It might even be it's first-born.


    (I will admit to not reading the whole article but the author is doing the cardinal sin of looking for the same type of sophistication in video games as he enjoys in other forms of entertainment, overlooking the fact that sophistication in video games must neccesary be of a different kind. This is yet another proof that video games is just not taken seriously, not even by those who say they love it. Video games are what they are and would people please stop trying to turn them into something else.)
     
  7. Mattias Gustavsson

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    Totally agree. Games are fun things to play with (and sometimes intellectual challenges too). You don't see people trying to make board games into "art", and we don't need to with video games either.
     
  8. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    I dont get it... I though games were the only entretainment media that actually borned matured and thank god art ridden.

    In art can be defined as the way the artist expresses himself(herself) to the world, there is no FUN in art because if you add the fun factor you have ENTRETAINMENT. And games are all about FUN... so where do you insert the art and still let the game exist?

    Matured? Games are about having fun... and the last time I checked there is not one activity that "regular" (indie game devs dont count) grown ups do exclusivly that is even remotely FUN (also I would like to point out that sex is not a grown up only related activity), when someone has FUN as an adult he/she is labelled as a big kid. Also since games = fun and everyone who is a funny adult must either be a clown or a big kid then games are for clowns, kids, and big kids.

    So the very first game created achieved this right out of the box... how can it grow up more?
     
    #8 Spiegel, Mar 20, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009
  9. Deva

    Deva New Member

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    There's no winning when attempting to discuss what is or isn't art. Like religion or politics, it's truly a subjective matter. But I have to disagree with your statement above, as I believe that there's nothing wrong with pushing the envelope and trying new things when it comes to video games. They are what they are, as you say, because so far, what they are is all that we've experienced. In the very early days of Pong and Space Invaders, video games were what they were back then, too, and it was hard to imagine exactly where they would be and the new experiences we'd have, 30 years down the road. In the same way, 30 years from now I'm sure we'll be seeing new game designs and concepts that we can't currently imagine.

    Experimental games, such as The Graveyard, suggest that there are different roads and ideas that will be taken and expanded upon in the future when it comes to game design, no matter how limited or "un-gamelike" they may presently appear. In any event, I think that if all game designers were to just say that "video games are what they are, so don't try to change them," then all of the games we play in the future will be exactly what we're playing now, (with the slight deviation here and there), only with shinier packaging. And, like the insipid uncreative wasteland that is network television, that's already getting pretty boring.
     
  10. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    Not that pseudo-game again, first of all... just because its interactive does not make it a game... a short "game" of an old lady cruising along the cemetery is nowhere near the town of fun (at least for me) and since there is no challenge, I cant even consider it a "game" (EDIT : correction.. she may die during play, possibly of boredom). If I made a movie of an guy walking along a street and people in the movie theater pushed a button to choose in which house he entered and then the movie would stop would it be a game or an interactive experiment? I call the second one.
    If you want to mature the game industry by making games more "un-game" like then I guess you should introduce yourself to the movie industry.

    Also, 320x240 isnt saying that new forms of gameplay/game design should not be invented and improved... He is just saying that we should not try to make games something other than what they are ... GAMES!!! For fun, with or without mature/adult content.
     
    #10 Spiegel, Mar 20, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009
  11. papillon

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    There are games made for adults, with more thinking, deeper plotlines, less twitchy action. But because they're designed not to be crazy juvenile screams for attention, they get less attention, and people often forget they exist.

    There are deep, arty, introspective, meaningful comic books. They generally have much smaller print runs than the loud colorful hero stuff. Trying to hand such a book to someone who came into the shop looking for a Wolverine comic is not always going to be appreciated.

    We're already seeing seeds of the art-game movement through blogs that collect and promote more arty, less mainstream games. It's not entirely fair to expect a casual game portal that puts forward fluffy, unchallenging games to equally promote, say, a game about the holocaust or a game where kids take lots of drugs, have lots of sex, and then try to kill themselves.

    If we really want to promote mature arty games, we'd do better writing mainstream articles about the ones that already exist to help bring them more attention rather than bemoaning the lack of them. (Of course, I tend to feel the same way about articles about the lack of women in gaming... Going on about how there are no women in gaming and it's such a repressive atmosphere that needs changing is not exactly the best way to convince more girls to sign up.)
     
  12. Spore Man

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    The kotaku article has a lot more merit than the "games as art" argument.
    We have to understand that even within the "traditional" art world, there has been this same debate and fighting between groups. Some 80 years or so, it was the impressionists, realists, VS the cubists and surrealists. Even within the so-called "abstract" movements they fought amongst themselves too (the Surrealists kicked out Salvador Dali for "going too far").

    It's all ridiculous, and pretty much anything can be "art" now, so why anyone would argue for that kind of "art" in game form is beyond me.

    So back to the actual topic of maturity, I do wish games would mature in the sense that developers will grow up enough to treat content in a manner that doesn't make me cringe. I'm talking about stuff like ridiculously exagerrated tits, or dialog that sounds like it was written by a naive 14 year old boy expressing his innermost pathetic fantasies. Know what I mean?? I like a little T&A and sexual content in games, but not when it's handled so poorly.
     
    #12 Spore Man, Mar 20, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009
  13. Christian

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    He is talkinga about stories in games, and narrative, there is not solution to the problem, because even if you hired a mature writter that made mature and sophisticated stories, it could not fit in medium that is immature, i mean, the play is very immature, mostly, shooting and killing is very immature, its like mixing Shakespeare with Power Rangers, or Chuck Norris, if people want more sophisticated games then what needs to evolve is the kind of interactivity, not only narrative, but thats the hard part, because most developers dont really have the kind of mastery and knowledge of the interactive medium to express themselves maturely, unlike many masters of storytelling who are experts in expression through stories, and can only express what they know, wich is what they have played on the past, or, what is demanded by the actual market: shooting and killing, fighting, finding stuff, matching colors. (There are very few exceptions, of course).
     
  14. aiursrage2k

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    A more mature game does not mean the game will be "better", for most games I dont even want a story, I will skip cut scenes whenever possible. A game is not a story, or graphics its gameplay
     
  15. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    If you pick up any good story and blend it into a game it will look childish and unbelievable because in a book th author controls the pace of the story, in a movie and music you can do it to.. you cant do it in a game and that alone makes the story lose a lot of momentum.

    Also to play a game you need a sort of lifeform commonly known as "playeurs dommesticus" which kind of mess up the way you make a story flow by killing the main caracter, making stupid decisions, replaying several parts of the game, you know learning the way a game is played (this would be the equivalent of trying to read a book upside down, jumping on it and yelling at it for it to decide to let you read it), but destroying any kind of belief behind the story.

    Games have this little problem, they are interactive, and like to present choices to the player... that alone would mess up most Shakesperian stories.
     
  16. papillon

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    And that's your choice and what you want in games. You're welcome to want that, but other people feel differently. To some people, story makes a huge difference and they don't even like playing a game if there's no story behind it.

    ... That's a pretty strange view of war you've got there. Shooting and killing with no consequence is immature, like kids playing at cops and robbers. But there are an awful lot of movies about shooting and killing that are quite serious.
     
  17. Christian

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    I know what you mean, but i tried to say that there are no "interactive systems" in games that, like some movies, protrait killing and shooting in a mature and serious way.
     
  18. papillon

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    A lot of books don't survive the transition to movie very well either, or end up having to be changed drastically in order to better suit the strengths of the medium and the expectations of the consumer.

    This is certainly a factor, but it's not insurmountable, it just requires that one actually take it into consideration when designing the story and the gameplay. You could be controlling a different character after each death, the penalty of failure could be something other than death, the need to keep trying until you succeed could be part of the point of the story...

    May I present the visual novel genre? :) You can tell a branching story with multiple endings and have them all be good stories that interrelate.

    I'm probably also the only one here who's ever written a dramatic live-action-roleplay scenario, although a few of you might have taken part in them. Unless you have an evil GM who intends to railroad everyone into doing things the 'right' way, there's a huge amount of flexibility in how things will turn out. Each plot and subplot might go this way or that. Maybe the players will leap on the clues, maybe they'll all be busy backstabbing each other! It's complicated and *incredibly* interactive, far more so than computer games can yet manage to be. I wouldn't say that games should try for this kind of craziness, I'm mostly bringing it up as a reminder that a writing job can mean a lot of different things...
     
  19. Mattias Gustavsson

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    Well put.

    What's so annoying is how often things are done like that out of some weird sense of "tradition"... Some game designers don't even think about it, they just make it like that because "that's what the gamers expect"... :rolleyes:
     
  20. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    When did this genre appeared??? :D You're right it is probably the exception for what I said. And yes everything I said may be worked around, or a cheaper way to do it just ignore it and make a story on rails (works for the AAA industry).

    Also I think that most game designers would learn a lot by playing a couple of times as a GM in a DnD PnP, there is nothing like the randomness of 4 to 6 geeky players destroying your carefully planned for weeks story in a couple of seconds.

    Also X-Com did it perfectly in every way I think...
    You were not an "active" player, your squad could die.
    You were not a one man person army, you were a leader of a division.
    The story was simple (alien invasion), but since your actions evolved the story (by deciding if you protected a country or not, by researching new tecnologies, etc), the story seemed solid and believable.
    The IA was on the spot, your squad could react by attacking the aliens when they appeared on their turns and vice versa, new comers to the mission would flee in panic...
    And dont get me talking about gameplay...

    I think this was one of the best designed (and mature) games I ever saw (even by today standards), and this was 15 years ago or so.

    EDIT: This is why we do not need mature games but mature PEOPLE in the game industry : German store stops selling 18+ rated games after school shooting.
    So now every "mature content" game is banned from their store, even if it is not violent, just suitable for adults... can someone say witch hunt?
     
    #20 Spiegel, Mar 20, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009

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