The J Force Video Documentaries- Road to $100,000

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by J Fizzle, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. Teeth

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, I just mean people saying that "we" or whoever should boot newbies off the forum. I was under the impression there was an invite only area, maybe that's not the case.

    Anyway, the point was, come back down to earth! This stuff from Nexic really pissed me off, oh my advice was ignored! oh you threw it back in my face! Just look at J Fizzle's posts, his username. It's quite clear he's not as sober and humourless as some people around here.

    papillon: I registered here a long time ago, I find the community quite interesting in terms of how pro indies go about business, but when people start discussing after 200 posts what is right for a forum it really gets my goat :)

    See the post above? Who is this magical "we"?

    edit just to be clear: I'm not saying people should be making this place "like TIGSource" or whatever, the business aspect is fine IMO although others might find it distasteful. But being elitist about it all does nothing except boost the egos of the people being elitist.
     
  2. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,637
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's very true, and something I suspect people who do eventually become professional indie developers will come to appreciate.
     
  3. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,637
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is, but it's mainly used to discuss things that would better be kept under wraps. Or at least, that's the idea. I think. It's not really used much, mainly because sometimes when you're not logged in it's not there to remind you :)
     
  4. Xymbiot3

    Xymbiot3 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm independent of a publisher and financial backing though right? (Indie games are video games that are created independently of the financial backing of a large publishing company.) I could easily have a hobbyist team and be dependent on them. Actually I have an audio guy and I'm dependent on his audio. I've also got project constraints and design templates that I'm 'dependent' on. The only things that may be different are the publishing, selling, and deadlines. Although, I would try to sell my game if it weren't first and foremost a portfolio piece. From what I've found, by the basic definition of 'independent', I am free from any external control.

    Also I don't want to give anyone the idea I'm calling myself an 'independent developer', I'm not. Just like debating what I feel an indie developer is.

    I realize GameDev is probably more tuned towards the actual game development, but isn't this forum for all aspects of indie games which includes development, business, etc... I understand having part of the forum set for making money, but thats business and not fully developmental. I think it's ALL about making indie games, not making money from indie games.

    Mattias, I checked out that wiki entry before my first post also but I didn't want to reference it due to it being a wiki. I agree though that it probably is the most commonly accepted definition but that doesn't mean it's right.

    I don't understand the point that if I have no financial backing, and have no large publisher behind me, why I need to stay at home and make games as my primary job to call myself an indie developer. To me, that's just a home developer, whether they're backed or not. This brings up what Applewood said with the movies (blockbusters, indie films, home films) but indie films have backing, just not as much. So we're defining if you are indie or not by the amount of money supporting you?

    Maybe it confuses me because I work a 40 hour week at work and develop games 20-30 hours a week after that which is a bit more than many simple hobbyists but less than the dedicated 'indie developers'.
     
  5. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, the invite only area doesn't get much traffic, I guess because there's not that much stuff people feel a need to keep secret. I rarely even read that section myself.

    But that's not the point. I don't think anyone here have proposed invite only forums, or to deny some people to read them. Some of us are just saying that the posts made here, should be in regards to professional indie development.

    To all you people who want this to be the next gamedev.net: Why is it not enough to visit this place and read to gain experience? Why do you feel you have to have the right to write nonsense comments? That's about boosting egos, if anything.

    Also, I'd like to point out that if I would get my way, I wouldn't be posting myself anymore. I would just be on of those dropping by to read. And I'd be happy with that.
     
  6. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    2
    No, you are not. But it's a common misconception.

    You're independent of a publisher or financial backer if:

    1) One of those parties might've been interested in the first place. You can't be independent of someone who wouldn't care. Otherwise everyone is independent and the word loses it's meaning. Like what's happened to it, funnily enough.

    2) You really could use the money to do the job right. Claiming independence infers that you're doing things in a non-standard, exceptional way. If you live with your parents and your sister draws your sprites, you can get a game done with zero financial outlay, but you're actually fully dependent on your family as your financial backers.

    If you're developing games full time (or even part time) and earning a living from it - a proper, sustainable living where you can afford to pay a mortgage, buy a car, raise the kids etc., (basically paying your own way through life) and you are doing this whilst not being beholden to commercial external pressure, then you are truly independent. Anyone else is just claiming to be because it's cool.
     
  7. Xymbiot3

    Xymbiot3 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    So the proper course of action would be to pitch my ideas to a publisher, get him interested, and decline any offers they may have so I can distribute, promote, and pay related fees myself. Only then, will I be truly independent if I make loads of money from it. Is this close?
     
  8. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Come on, Applewood provided one of the better explanations on this subjects, so no need to be like that about it. No wonder the experienced people are driven away from here!

    Why is it so important for you to call yourself indie? Personally, I call myself a hobbyist, as I'm currently a student and I'm not making games as a source of income.

    But more importantly: Do we really need to argue about the meaning of the word "indie"? I'm sure we can find more interesting things to argue about...
     
  9. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,897
    Likes Received:
    0
    but we haven't argued about this for MONTHS!!!
     
  10. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not quite what he meant; he meant that the game should be of a quality and marketability that would otherwise interest a publisher. Stretches the definition of "indie" somewhat but I think what he's trying to say is that it has to actually be worth something to someone. Whether that be paying customers or publishers or even just website visitors.

    Cas :)
     
  11. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    2
    Nope the way to declare independence of the norm is simply to make as much money as an average professional dev who's fully employed somewhere like codemasters. And then do it all by yourself instead.

    If you couldn't get a job as a full time developer, you're not independent of them, you're unemployable by them. There's a major league difference. But you won't get it. Just for the record, you are the very definition of the newbie trolls I would like to see the back of, right down to challenging people you know nothing about on post #2 and your silly 1337 name.
     
    #111 Applewood, Jul 1, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  12. Xymbiot3

    Xymbiot3 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've got no problem with calling yourself indie, I'm not a fan of other people saying 'You're not indie, I am, and here's why...!' I myself prefer to just call myself a developer. I'm not professional, I'm apparently not 'indie' enough (although I wouldn't call myself indie), and it isn't just a hobby to me. I'm fine with people who have never coded a line in their life being told that they are not indie. I'm not fine when someone is told they are not indie based on something like distributing their game for free and not being able to support themselves from it especially if it is a conscious decision whether the game is a success or not.

    princec, I agree to an extent, marketable games should be of quality and interest publishers. I built a game in VB 6 back when I first started programming and I was exstatic about making it even though it was really simple. It was absolutly worth something to me and I still keep a copy of it with my other games. Maybe you meant worth something to someone excluding the creator, but there are loads of professional games that have been played though never really worthwhile to anyone.

    Mattias/cliffski, I'm not arguing (unless you were referring to someone else, though I doubt it), simply discussing about something I'm interested in.

    EDIT:

    I'm not 'challenging' you. You seem to think that, since I'm new to these forums, I'm new to game development. I'll consider changing my username and posting more so I can be a better developer (that was a challenge).
     
  13. Nexic

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Messages:
    2,437
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, it pisses me off when I take the time to give advice and people ignore it. Why does that offend you? Maybe you'll understand when you've achieved something.
     
  14. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    2
    I have no idea how good a programmer you are. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that you just joined and rather than settling in a bit and seeing how the land lies, you jump straight into a fight with some of the old hands, and start deliberately (surely) misrepresenting quotes and stuff to prolong it. And yes, I really do tune out anyone who uses all that l33t shite. You'll find most real programmers do, I think. We've started using it at work lately just to take the piss. :)

    It's more than possible to disagree with someone without coming across as a troll, but you're just not making it right now.
     
  15. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,897
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ch1ll 0uT Guy$ L3ts 4LL B3 Fr13ND$ :D

    Seriously, this topic has run it's course I r3ckon :D
     
  16. Matt2East

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wow, this thread is really making people tear at each other's throats. JFizzle and his crew are probably sitting around laughing their asses off right now.
     
  17. tentons

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    0
    All I can say is that some people posting here are total curmudgeons. Get out the signs: "Kids keep off my lawn!" and staple them to your foreheads.

    I mean, if it's so unimportant that you have to watch the video then post here about how unimportant it is... why are you even bothering?

    In confusion,
     
  18. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,637
    Likes Received:
    0
    You know a thread is over when Cliffski decides it's gone too far :)
     
  19. AlexWeldon

    AlexWeldon New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not talking about running an amusement park, I'm just talking about having enough posts per week that people remember to bother coming back to check them, or even bother signing up in the first place.

    I suppose there are a minority of people who frequent forums SOLELY to find useful information, but they're just that - a minority. For most of us, there's at least an element of "I need a five minute break, let's see what's new on Indiegamer." If there weren't daily posts, we'd forget to come back.

    I agree, of course, that there are always going to be people who are of no value to a community. The trouble is it's a very blurry line... you can't judge people on their arrogance alone; often that's just a combination of youthful cockiness and the exhilaration associated with the phase of rapid improvement when you first start something new. Many obnoxious kids actually do end up doing impressive things once they get over themselves.

    Most people feel like a superstar the first time they get a sprite to move around the screen and follow their keyboard commands. It's like learning to rock out with a few power chords on guitar or add some fried onions and peppers to a store-bought pasta sauce, or understanding how a snapback works. You're sure the rest will follow in short order. Well, short order generally turns out not to be so short, but that's something you only learn after you've been around that particular block a few times... as someone young enough that I'm still within spitting distance of the embarrassment of my university-age arrogance, I'm pretty willing to forgive people for getting ahead of themselves like that.
     
  20. MindToy Games

    MindToy Games New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see both sides of the debate, but any forum needs fresh blood to continue to propagate and be successful, IMHO. As long as the new blood isn't overly cocky or too disrespectful, i'm ok with "newbies".

    Hey, i've been at this indie game thing myself for over 8 years now, and I learn something new every day. When I started, I tended to shoot my mouth off and say some pretty dumb things sometimes. I had a few smart devs (via the ASP and other avenues) and customers point some things out to me, and I learned the things I needed to learn, and the ones who last any amount of time will too.
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer