The J Force Video Documentaries- Road to $100,000

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by J Fizzle, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. Mattias Gustavsson

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    Well, if you did that, and made the "for beginners" forum not be included in the "new posts/todays posts" search, that would be a big help.

    Which is why we would still let newbs post, as long as they post things related to professional indie development. So it would be perfectly ok for newbs to ask questions about how this business works, but not to post "feedback request for my first asteroids clone".

    Since the early Dexterity days. And signal to noise was way higher then, as most of us newbs was content reading, and didn't feel the need to post "me too" on every thread...

    It's not a problem if the same issuses gets discussed over again. Sometimes things changed, so discussions need to take place again.
     
  2. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    That's about where I'm coming from. This board should be full of guys like introversion imo. People genuinely making lots of money independently who might trade one bit of vital info for another. There have been a few of these here to be fair, but even they seem to have gone quiet lately, possibly gone completely.

    The whole point for me is not about stomping on newbs to feel superior/whatever, but to keep the crap down so pro's feel like they're not wasting their time when they get here.
     
  3. Chris Evans

    Moderator Original Member

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    Where do I advocate ignoring them? All I said was the original intent of the site was not to be reliant on one single distribution channel with a gatekeeper. But instead use all the available distribution channels at your disposal and develop a strong website presence for the long term.

    There's quite a few indies here who've had their games on a variety of platforms.

    Interestingly enough, I've heard off the record from several people that XBLA is no longer really viable for indies. As expected royalty rates are dropping and the big boys are taking up more virtual shelf-space. Between getting development kits, passing certs, getting a placement, and using a game engine that can't really be used anywhere else, XBLA has become very risky for most indies unless they're working with a publisher.

    What's wrong with appeasing gatekeepers? That would have gotten you thrown off this board a few years ago. :) To answer your question, the difference between a PC portal and XBLA is that if a PC Portal rejects (or accepts) your game, your free to submit your game to about 10-20 other portals without changing a line of code. You can post the game on your website and attempt to sell it from there as well. The PC Portal rejection doesn't prevent your game from seeing the light of day. Whereas with XBLA, if you buy dev kits, pass certs, and MS decides to pass on your game, you're basically left with just some pretty screen shots to post on your website. As you said, you can't post the game downloadable on you site. You can't submit your game to other online distribution channels because the code is tied to the XB platform. This is a very poor and risky strategy for most indies.

    The better strategy for indies to get on those platforms seems to be to make a successful PC game first and then port it (or outsource it) to XBLA,WiiWare,DS or etc.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to push you away. You were being blunt earlier, so I decided to be blunt as well and play Devil's Advocate a bit. You were lambasting newbs and wanting to purge them all, but I just wanted to remind you that this site is (or used to be?) focused on self-publishing, direct sales, online distribution channels and marketing; things, which you admit, you're not terribly experienced with yourself.
     
  4. Chris Evans

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    I don't know... For competitive reasons you're probably never going to have an open forum full of highly successful guys trading info. We have a lot of successful portal developers and many have admitted they don't post as much info because of the competitive environment these days. Also, many times when a successful person posts, they get flooded with PMs from people asking for industry contacts, stats and whatnot. It gets time consuming.

    If I get the order to move more threads to the beginner forum, I'm fine with that. But I think right now things are filtered pretty good. This particular topic seems to fit in the Indie Ads > Announcements category. Maybe instead of hitting New Posts, just visit the relevant forums you're interested in.
     
  5. Mattias Gustavsson

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    It's a shame... this place used to be different, in a good way...

    So, I guss the other option then is to do a split (I usually hate when that happens, but sometimes it's the only option) and start a new forum elsewhere, with a professional rather than community focus. Any interest in something like that? (I know there's probably a bunch of people here who can provide hosting and technology, but what I'm really asking is if the professionals here would be interested to join such an initiative, because without them, a new forum would be pointless)
     
  6. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Why off the record? Shouldn't it be talked about openly here ? They have indeed dropped the royalty rate, from a bizarre 70% down to around 40% which is still pretty damn good. I bet (assuming you could) you could take any mildly succesful game on PC, port it to 360 and make oodles more money.

    More myth peddling. I'm not aware of anyone who didn't get a greenlight from MS at the beginning who didn't subsequently get their finished game on sale. It seems riskier to me to concentrate on a platform where most people don't make anything at all tbh, but I guess we'll agree to disagree on this point. I sure as hell don't know how I'd pay my companys wage bill for six months from any of the 'success' stories around here let alone the failures. I'll take risk over guaranteed failure any day. XBLA is perfect for indies who mean it.

    That's probably not a bad option either, but doesn't work for larger teams with bigger wage bills.

    This is a fair point. My counterpoint is that I've been here a good few years now and I still can't answer most of your original questions. But I have seen an awful lot of crap games that will never sell. :)
     
  7. cliffski

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    I've recently done two deals that are way way closer to 70 than 40. If you have a good game and don't just accept what you are given, you can do better than 40.
    Not with XBLA's market, but then its a chicken and egg thing, they have the market because they have the games.
     
  8. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I'm still on the 70 anyway. Agreements in place before this new realignment stay in place. Thank God! :)
     
  9. AlexWeldon

    AlexWeldon New Member

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    My two cents, regarding the question of hobbyists vs. pros:

    1) How do you differentiate between a game made for fun and a game made for sale? It seems clear cut at first, but there are several grey areas. You've got the guys like JFizzle, who think their game is going to make $100k, whereas most others' assessment is that they'll be lucky to make $100. Then you've got the guys like me who are aiming to make money off their games eventually, but aren't expecting their first title to be a commercial success. You've also got a mostly hypothetical creature, someone making a commercial-quality game, but intending to give it away for free. How do you evaluate these types of people? The cutoff gets very fuzzy.

    2) Any forum needs a certain amount of activity to stay alive, and the chatter which is "noise" to you may still be of interest to others. I'm a strong Go player, and I've noticed that elitist "dan-level players only" communities disappear quickly... other communities die because they're overrun by loudmouth noobs who think they understand something about the game: this is also true... however, the communities that thrive are the ones that have a pyramid structure, with 100 intermediate players helping out 500 noobs, and 20 strong players helping the intermediates and having high-level discussion amongst themselves. If it weren't for the opportunity to help weaker players, there simply wouldn't be enough going on to keep anyone coming back.

    3) People improve with time at most things, and someone who is rejected by a community early in their growth is unlikely to come back later. I think at this point, my skill level is such that you would probably boot me off the forum, given a choice. However, I'm improving rapidly and I think I'll be a valuable member in time. Already I'm contributing by giving my graphic design advice to some of the other less experienced people... it seems to be helping some people. Anyway, if I'd been told that I wasn't welcome because I didn't already have a commercial title published, my reaction would have been "to heck with these guys," and not "boy, I can't wait till I get my first title finished to prove myself to a bunch of pretentious strangers so I can join their elite club."
     
  10. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Not to say I disagree with your points, but the above one only really makes sense if you're talking about a theme park, or something else aimed at entertaining people. I really like helping people in indie development, but I don't think the primary purpose of this forum was to put up a roller coaster and daily amusements so people would feel inclined to hang around.
     
  11. Xymbiot3

    Xymbiot3 New Member

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    My thoughts:

    If you are a pro developer and go to a forum where you feel you are wasting your time based on the work of the others, you obviously are thinking what you've done is better to some degree. Pros can actually go to forums and help the new guys with questions and make comments on their work even if they feel it is sub-par.

    If you aren't able to sell your Xbox games, and feel being independent warrants receiving money for your games, maybe you should consider targeting a different market.

    I'm in college (so I'm not a full-time developer) building a game in whatever spare time I have, by myself. I've done all the artwork, all the programming, etc... I will comfortably say I'm way more dedicated than many developers (indie and professional) out there because I build games because I like building games, not to get a few bucks. Even if I were inexperienced, should I not be allowed on the forums? If I were to run a forum, I'd rather have hundreds of new guys, motivated and excited to learn and talk, rather than 10-20 professional developers who rarely frequent the forums.

    Granted, I'm the new guy here, but I'm not new to game development and the game industry. Being independent (to me at least) doesn't mean staying at home and building games as a 40-hour week job. Independence technically means 'free from external control and constraint'. Why is 'Independent Developer' automatically mean 'free from publisher'? If anything is messed up it's the definition of Independent Developer. There are hundreds of things you could be independent of and maintain being a game developer.
     
  12. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I think you've been a valuable member for a while, for what it's worth. I have nothing against people starting out (it's been pointed out that technically I'm one too) as long as they're realistically aiming for goals that this board is meant to represent.

    My problem is simply with tossers who come here to annoy, show off their shit stuff and basically treat the place like another gamedev.net. These people represent a growing crowd ime and I would put the O/P firmly amongst them. Maybe I should not have used the word "newbs" but "idiots".

    ime, there are two groups of people who can get called newbs. One is people who *could* get there but haven't started out yet, whilst the other usually far larger group is made of wankers who just want to hang on and don't have a chance of achieving anything. (Like the guy who thinks his FPS already looks good). I should've stated I've been referring all along to the latter group and apologise for none of it. If anyone else thinks I insulted them, then I apologise if you're in the former.
     
  13. Nexic

    Indie Author

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    I'd rather have a mix of the two. I definitely don't want to be in a forum overrun with kids with no experience. However I don't want to be in a pro-only forum either as new topics would only come up once a week. A few newbies are fine, just as long as the pros don't end up as too small a minority.
     
  14. Mattias Gustavsson

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    Because that's what it means.

    It's the commonly accepted definition of independent game development.

    Of course, you can come up with your own definition (there's a whole bunch of us over at TIGSource who thinks indie should mean more than just publisher-independency), but the indiegamer forums goes by the commonly accepted wikipedia definition (or at least used to, nowadays who can say).

    If I want to talk about tech stuff, latest shaders, engines etc, I go to devmaster.net. Good place for that stuff, and it's what that place is all about.

    If I want to talk about weird little niche-market games, or making games for fun, or read about what other devs think about the new diablo game, I go to TIGSource. Good place for that stuff, and it's what that place is all about.

    If I want to read about the challenges people face when making games as a business, without publisher funding, I used to go to this place. It used to be a good place for that stuff, and it's what this place used to be all about.

    Why can't we keep forums oriented towards different goals, without having them be called "elitist".

    Maybe we should open this forum up for all sorts of topics, it would be elitist to only have it be about game development, right?

    I'll never understan why some people want to drown out signal with noise :rolleyes:
     
  15. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    This makes you a hobbiest game developer. Great stuff, you sound like a good one. I hope it works out. Seriously. But you're not an independent developer!

    "Independent" is not a random word, a trendy badge, or anything else. It means you're doing something independently. What you describe simply doesn't have any dependencies in the first place.

    There are hollywood blockbusters
    Then there are independent films (4 weddings etc)
    Then there are home movies

    If what you shoot isn't good enough to get sell in numbers, it's a home movie. They're still fun to make but they're independent of nothing.



    wha?
    I'm in the right place. Maybe you should consider targetting a different forum ? This one is ALL about making money from games.
     
  16. Teeth

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    don't you "indie authors" have your own private place for your happy circlejerk business discussions? i thought?

    why boot out newbie and unproven indies from the public area if you can already continue your exasperated indignance in private?

    doesn't make sense. svero, chris evans and rico etc are right. the rest of you are partly or wholly pompous, arrogant and self-obsessed, IMO.
     
  17. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Teeth, you do realise you just called svero pompous, arrogant and self-obsessed, as well as correct? ;) I don't know about chris evans and rico, but svero is one of those "indie authors".
     
  18. papillon

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    Yeah. These forums. If you hate them, why'd you join? :)

    Generally I haven't been reading this thread, since J Force is such nonsense I assume he's a dedicated troll.
     
  19. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I think a better questions is "Are they serious about making games?". Some people might consider themselves serious, but it's usually pretty clear to more experienced developers whether it's going anywhere.
     
  20. Mattias Gustavsson

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    We are not saying that hobbyists are not as good as professionals. We're saying that hobbyists have different goals than professionals. Why do some of you take that as a judgement of your worth?

    There are other places which serve the hobbyists interests, but none which serve the interest of professionals.
     

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