The J Force Video Documentaries- Road to $100,000

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by J Fizzle, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. J Fizzle

    J Fizzle New Member

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    Sorry man, I don't mean to insult anyone who tried to help me out. The comments in the intro we're merely a way to sort of "set the scene." Ya know, let the audience know we're facing an uphill battle, everyone thinks we'll fail, etc. Makes it more interesting. Sorta like the Creating Kaos series. Ha, now that guy puts my ambition and arrogance to shame.

    edit: testing: (ignore this) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY9AiaMT8Zw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0B6Gbsu3N0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYLpPQcY13g
    Game Development
    XNA
    Adventures in Game Development
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgChURF5fQE
     
    #61 J Fizzle, Jun 30, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2008
  2. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    Tell that to the landlord.
     
  3. DanMarshall

    Original Member

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    Yeah, Cliff. You're clearly not cut out for this 'indie' thing as a profession.
     
  4. Ricardo C

    Original Member

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    Walked by the mirror?
     
  5. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    *sigh*

    Rico, I am being realistic, not arrogant, or anything like it. You may be doing this as a hobby, and for 'the love of it', but plenty of people here make games full time, and doing that means they need to treat it like a business.

    And I don't worry about rent, I don't have any, but plenty of people here do, and they use their indie game businesses to pay it.
     
  6. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    Other forums, like the TIGSource forums for example, are all about indie games for the fun of it. What's wrong with trying to have ONE place which is about the business side of indie games?
     
  7. AnthemAudio

    Original Member

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    I was going to be on the "not offended, let em play" side of the fence, until I read this quote from a blog they submitted to IndieGames.com

    "This whole "best game ever" thing really only stems from the fact that we think most indie games suck, and we think we could do better."

    I know it's supposed to be part of the "marketing hype" content, but that did hit me the wrong way.

    First it made me laugh, then it made me "meh", now it makes me "meh?". I mean, if JFizzle came here with that exact quote in his requests he wouldn't have got any help to begin with you think? So just because he isn't saying it here explicitly, doesn't mean he isn't still implying it with every post, blog and "webisode" they produce.

    Too bad, I was prepared to watch the whole thing unfold for sheer entertainment value anyhow. I think instead I'll just go try and spot more plagiarism in Limbo and help track down Steve Bovis.

    -Tony
     
  8. Nexic

    Indie Author

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    I don't feel offended when someone quietly decides not to follow advice offered. I only feel offended when it seems like someone is throwing it back in my face.

    By saying "our game is the best ever" and "most indie games suck" you are degrading the achievements of a lot of talented people before you. Just like your card game slogan rico - it's pure arrogance. Oh gee, it's now it's turned into a who's more arrogant war... :rolleyes:

    Eitherway, thank you for the apology jfizzle.
     
  9. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    In fact, it should be everyone here.

    If you're not doing this professionally already or don't have plans to be doing so in the near future, I wish you'd just leave. If I was moderating, the membership of this place would be cut by an order of magnitude.

    This board is supposed to be for independent professionals - at least that's what it was set up for. Nowadays it's just yet another place for newbie games programmers to offer unqualified opinion and bad advice.

    Why for instance are people always asking for feedback on their first ever crap game with programmer art and bad/no sound? Pretty soon I'm going to start providing it!
     
  10. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    I vote Applewood for moderator!
     
  11. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Well you have to keep in mind that a lot of the newbs of today WILL in fact be the serious guys of tomorrow. Being too restrictive or unfriendly with membership has drawbacks. I'm not sure why people are so keen to get rid of the newbs. I guess there's a limit but really for a lot of stuff can't you just ignore it. Besides... Sometimes it is pretty entertaining no?
     
  12. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    It's not about wanting to get rid of newbs, it's about wanting to keep the experienced people around and involved.

    The more space given to people posting jokes and irrelevant stuff, the less likely we are to get to share the opinions of the people who's opinions really count: the ones who have gone through things and have the experience.

    Svero, what do you see as the purpose of indiegamer? (I honestly don't know anymore what you, the owners, want it to be)
     
  13. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Actually, for me it's getting rid of the newbs. Sorry to be blunt about it!

    They are indeed the force of the future, but they're not the force of the present. There are stacks of boards for newbs to hang out and swap programming tips already, so why do we need to turn this one over too ?

    I'm all for mentoring, in fact I quite enjoy it as I've said before. But not in here. In here, we should be swapping marketing advice, exchanging tips on polishing commercial titles, asking for feedback on stuff we actually intend to sell, how to leverage our business, etc.

    It's just not about "look at my crappy game". Well, it wasn't.
     
  14. Chris Evans

    Moderator Original Member

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    Well we actually have a private forum that's free of newbies and it's the least active forum on this board aside from the casual forum. It's practically dead and been that way for the past 3 years. There already is an area on this board where professional indies can exchange information and advice without the noise of newbies and it's hardly ever utilized.

    Personally, I think if someone actually finishes a game (which is better than the great majority) they should be welcome to request feedback even if it's "crappy" and full of programmer art. As long as they have an intent to attempt to sell it and they take the feedback with an open mind, then I don't mind. The number one advice we always give here is "to start small" but if they do start small we should purge them from the forum? If those posts bother you then just steer clear of the Feedback forum.

    Ironically Applewood, if we used the same standards we had a couple of years ago, you wouldn't have access to the private forum because you haven't released a game that's available for sale on your website. Originally this site was about selling games independently through your website and using portals/retail for additional revenue streams. It wasn't about making games for a single distribution channel and appeasing gate-keepers. That's similar to the traditional dev/publisher retail model that most people became indies to avoid. Obviously indie devs have to adjust their strategy as the market changes but I felt Indiegamer always placed a premium on developing a strong web presence even if takes awhile and you're using other distribution channels for primary income.

    Applewood, I respect you and your company. I admire that you've managed to run and sustain a small team in this volatile market. You have WAY more game development experience than I do, but demanding to get rid of newbies comes off as arrogant considering you haven't self-published an indie game, which was the original intent of this site. What payment processor do you recommend? Which one is best for affiliates? What's your experience with Adwords and what is your daily budget? What do you use to manage your newsletter mailing list? Do you use a single or double opt-in method? What's the best way to package multiple builds for portals dealing with the various wrappers? What's a good contact for getting rid of RapidShare links quickly? What sites do you contact when you have a game update? Do you use a press release submission service or do you maintain your own list? Can you answer any of these questions from experience?

    So let's not be so quick to banish all newbies. There's people here who are newbies developing games and there's people here who are newbies at self-publishing and distributing their own software.
     
  15. Davaris

    Original Member

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    I was going to post something similar but I'm glad I didn't, because it wasn't my place to do so and you said it so much better than I ever could.

    Another point is if we don't have newbies, then this place will slowly die, because there will be no up and comers to replace the older ones when they move on to other things.
     
  16. Backov

    Original Member

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    All that stuff - Indie Business (and the feedback forum).

    The stuff you dismiss as the things that shouldn't be on this forum is all the other forums.
     
  17. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Rearranged a little....

    That's because the whole forum should be like that. What you're basically saying there is that we have one catch all place for proper stuff and the rest is open to better categorized proper stuff.

    Oh no, that would be terrible. I'm sure I must've made a single post in that at some point. People probably don't go in the private forum much because nothing much is going to want to be kept publicly private. Just a thought. And show me how to sell Xbox games from my website and I'll put it up.

    Then this board needs a new title and mission statement. "Independent" is supposed to mean development without publishers or other funders controlling the development. It should not encompass anything that wouldn't ever get any sort of funding or publishing deal in the first place. What exactly is "my first asteroids game" meant to be independent of, exactly ? The only thing I can think of, is being indepedendent of any chance of making an income.

    Well, apart from the self-funded indie game part then I guess you're right there. Doesn't one XBLA and about 15 PDA and mobile phone games count ? However, you're already vergeing on "get rid of the experienced professional devs so we can favour more newbs" path. Unlike most people here I'm trying to make my "entire" company independent, not just myself, which is why the number of published games is low (ie one at present with one more planned). I would've thought tales about that might have value here, arrogance notwithstanding of course.

    Nope, small can work. Unmarketable crap? yeah, why not. This isn't meant to be a hobbiest site. If you can't write something merchantable, why would you even *want* to come here.

    I just checked, and you're not even close. Besides, it's not the headings, it's what's in em. Go look in the recent 50 posts for each one and see what the S/N ratio looks like to you. I only piped up at all because I've noticed recently that each time I come here I press new posts, do a quick scan then mark all as read.

    Now that I can't really argue with, but I can name the number of succesful full teams that went indie on PC only as being exactly two, and I'm working with one of them right now as it happens, in non-PC areas! What's wrong with appeasing gatekeepers anyway? Is XBLA a gatekeeper whereas a PC portal isn't ? Which do you think is easier to do and therefore help would be more useful in ?

    What you might consider though is that the way to make real money independently is precisely these other channels. I certainly don't get why you're advocating ignoring them. You'll need more help getting onto XBox than you will getting onto big fish, I assure you, especially if all you can code is an asteroids game with the physics bit pasted from a book.

    I would've thought sharing info on how best to get on the platforms that make real money would've been a far stronger area of interest here tbh. I suspect there's not so much interest as the forum is now full of people that couldn't hope to get on it in the first place, and that's where I came in.

    Not many. The main reason I'm here is to get a handle on that stuff as I'd like to punt out some PC games when our independent XBox game and other commercial profits gives us the budget to try and do it properly. However, if you're trying to prove that I have equal value here to some programmer newb who can't answer anything, I think the argument is already over, huh. I'm sorry the above doesn't sound like a business model suited to this forum. Both for myself and your board.

    Yup, and this site was setup to service only the latter. A category the great Arrogant Applewood has always professed to fall squarely into, I might add.
     
    #77 Applewood, Jul 1, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  18. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    The purpose for me is threads like the one discussing the recent portal war. It would be nice if they were ALL like that thread. Ie pertinent discussions of whats happening the business today, but I'm not sure enough is happening day to day for that to happen. You'd have one thread a month or something. If that. Sure newb posts might scare away some pro developers, but so would a site with very few posts and no activity. What would happen if we made it membership only? Would you pay to join? Who determines who belongs? What is the bar to entry? etc... It's not obvious what would best maintain the highest level of quality. I just don't find the newb posts all that threatening and I find the community tends to be a little more unfriendly and preachy than it really needs to be. Maybe stricter moderation should go into moving certain threads into the "beginner" forum which then more experienced people would be free to ignore.
     
  19. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    I don't think so. I think we would slowly but surely get a professional board, with a decent amount of activity, as professional devs would be attracted to the board again.

    I don't think we need to do that. I just think the moderators need to delete every post that hasn't got anything to do with professional indie development.
     
  20. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Well I'm not sure Id want to start deleting every post, but I wouldn't be against stricter filtering into a large "for beginners" forum. I'm not sure if you're right about the amount of pro posts going up. I don't post a lot of new threads because I don't find there's a whole lot of new things to discuss. If you've been reading for years.. like some of u have.. a lot of the same topics are just getting re-hashed. The portal fight thread is interesting because it is something new. (ie iwins position on exclusivity and so on...)
     

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