The Great 2D Engine Stress Test Shootout

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by Martoon, Feb 9, 2005.

  1. bentlegen

    Original Member

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    Well, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, I managed to reduce my CPU load from 80% to 5% by switching from pure-SDL to Kyra - with all rendering performed in software. That's going to reduce my minimum system requirements significantly, and I shouldn't have to worry about users' video hardware getting into the equation either.

    - ben
     
  2. rodent

    Original Member

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    Ben,

    Actually that was one of my motives for choosing BlitzPlus as well. It's more than fast enough even on my PII laptop with a 4 meg gfx card. Its requirements are DX1 (while it also has GDI and OpenGL support), so it works pretty much on every Windows OS out there, even on NT4.

    I really love the simplicity as it keeps me focused on the essentials and makes programming fast.

    The only thing I am really missing is classes. Having used Delphi, C++, VB6 etc for years at work, having such limitations is a bit of a culture shock. :D
     
  3. 1EyedJack

    Original Member

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    Hi,
    Anybody else here developing games in Delphi ??
    Well I think Delphi is a very good and flexible language for rapid gamedevelopement, and there are many good game-engines out
    there for delphi as well:

    For DirectX :
    Asphyre
    DelphiX
    FlegelX
    GameVision SDK
    Project Omega
    WDirectX
    XCess

    a comparison of theese can be found here: http://turbo.gamedev.net/wrappers.asp

    There are also some availabe for OpenGL:
    GLXtreem
    GLScene
    A3D nGine

    Most of these are free for both non-commercial and commercial projects and some are also open-source. I am using the "Project Omega" myself and I find it very easy to develop games on top of this engine. As it is open-source you can modify it for your own needs and that makes it very flexible. The only bad thing about it is the lack of documentation, but I have experimented my way forward and most answers can be found in the "Project Omega"-forum.
     
  4. yanuart

    Original Member

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    HGE seems to be great, I've seen it in action and agreed mostly with what the developer want to achieve in his engine.

    The only setback is that it's based on DX8.1, a friend of mine told me that since DX8.1 is not bundled with OS till WinXP, it's a bad decision to make a shareware game based on it since the DX8.1 redistributable download cost like 25MB.

    I don't know, I haven't published any of my games yet but maybe some of you allready have the experiences or statistics to tell
     
  5. Nonz

    Original Member

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    Delphi Developer here but it's business applications only at the moment. I was looking for something to help me do games programming in Delphi but finding decent documentation for any of them is not so easy.

    I was contemplating going to a games development engine like Torque or Blitz, even had a look at Game Maker (also written Delphi) but just can't find anything I fell comfortable with.

    I haven't had a look at Project Omega as yet so I might give that a try.

    Nonz.
     
  6. TamLin

    Original Member

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    Have you looked at Truevision3D? It supports many languages, including Delphi (I'm probably the only person learning to use it with Smalltalk :)).

    ADDENDUM: Although Truevision3D supports 3D graphics (duh!), you could use it to develop 2D games.
     
    #46 TamLin, Feb 16, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2005
  7. 20thCenturyBoy

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    Well, anyone who has installed a game of any graphical complexity in the past 3 years will almost certainly have DX 8.1. IMHO. It's as good a cut-off point as any.
     
  8. Melv May

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    T2D .plan

    Hi!

    Just thought I'd mention the following link that you guys might be interested in...

    Torque 2D

    - Melv.
     
  9. MrPhil

    Original Member

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    Woo Hoo!!! I can't wait to check it out. Thanks for dropping in Melv!
     
  10. bentlegen

    Original Member

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    I guess I'm not that impressed.

    I mean, any engine out there can produce the same results. What's important isn't what's visible - it's what's behind the scenes that interests us developers. The screenshots are merely proof that the engine exists, imho.

    Once again, just trying to keep the hype machine at bay.

    - ben
     
  11. Ciperl

    Original Member

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    Well, if the "behind the scenes" is what interests you. Torque 2D comes with the full source code. Now are you interested?

    You also mentioned:
    But if you read the people who placed Torque Game Engine in the "worst" $100 dollars they ever spent, most also said it was because they never used the engine or it was too big / complex for them. That doesn't sound like a negative to me.
     
    #51 Ciperl, Feb 23, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2005
  12. bentlegen

    Original Member

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    Yes, but does it come with the full source code now? My only point is that the screenshots aren't any reason to be excited about the engine. If those same screenshots were accompanied by source code showing the engine's ease of use and flexibility, that would be a different story.
    You regard too big and complex as a positive, then? Mind you, I regard the opinions of users on this forum with very high regard. These aren't teenagers who bought Torque, thought it was too complex, and never touched it again.

    I'm not putting down Torque2D, I just have a "wait and see" attitude about it. I also felt a voice of dissent was necessary after reading the earlier comment that "Torque2D invalidates all other offerings."

    - ben
     
  13. Bmc

    Bmc New Member

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    so what exactly are the specs for torque2d?
     
  14. Ciperl

    Original Member

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    Bentlegen,

    You say you respect the opinions of those on this forum. But it seems to me you are putting words in their mouth. Only ONE person said that Torque was the "worst $100" they spent and they even said they loved lots about it. Here's a refresher from that thread (below). Many of the people who posted that Torque was a "meh" purchase for them admit that they haven't spent much time in the engine. You say you were just trying to settle down the "hype" machine and they only Hype machine was the main developer "Melv May" coming into the forums and saying a few words. "Hi! Just thought I'd mention the following link that you guys might be interested in...Torque 2D - Melv." If that's "hype", I'd hate to see your PR guy.


    Reply With Quote

     
  15. illume

    Original Member

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    Some ideas for a 2d engine shootout:

    List of Features the engines have

    compatibility.
    ie does it support GDI, opengl, windows 95, macos9, linux(debian, redhat), etc


    Installer size.
    - how big is a minimal game.


    Image formats supported.
    • 32 bit per pixel alpha.
    • 2 bit, 16bit.
    • png, gif, jpeg, bmp, tga etc etc.
    • etc, etc.

    Movie formats supported.
    • mpeg, flic natively.
    • windows codecs.
    • quicktime
    • etc, etc.

    Vector graphics supported?
    • lines.
    • circles.
    • rectangles.
    • polygons.
    • etc, etc.


    Tools support.
    Are there any helper tools that is directly integrates with? Like map editors, animation programs etc.




    Other features can be listed in here as well. Eg.
    • supports platformers?
    • supports tile map rendering?
    • supports lighting?
    • supports animated sprites?
    • supports animated tiles?
    • scaling, rotation?
    • real time rotation, scaling?
    • cached rotation, scaling?
    • specialized types of sprite scaling?
    • paralax scrolling?
    • etc etc.



    Tests that need to be written up for each engine.

    Images that it can blit per second.
    • 32 bit Per pixel alpha.
    • 16 bit per pixel alpha.
    • 2 bit.
    • Overlapping images.
    • Images moving around the place.


    Collision detection.
    • sprites flying around bouncing off each other.
    • sprites flying around off the screen too.
    • tilemap collision.
    • etc etc.



    Please add any ideas to this, and hopefully we can come up with a list of demos we need to write up. I can't wait to see pygame beat them all ;)
     
  16. gmcbay

    Indie Author

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    It'll be interesting to see if the tools for Torque2D are any good. IMO the biggest point of failure for non-2D Torque is that for the first few years it was out, the tools support was abysmal. It doesn't matter if the engine costs $100 if you need to lay down another couple grand (for 3DS Max) to realistically get artwork into it. The tool support may be better now, haven't looked into it much, but that, plus the fact that the DTS format was horribly overcomplicated, making writing 3rd party exporters for it a huge chore, was what initially turned me off from Torque.

    (The poor documentation and the fact that you really had to know the engine inside and out -- even if you were an experienced programmer -- before you could make it do anything other than be a Tribes mod didn't help either, but alas).
     
  17. dima

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    I just really hope it uses DX for rendering on windows, as there are issues with GL drivers some people might have. Also, would be very nice if it used DX7, for maximum compatibility. Everything else should be ok I think.
     
  18. gmcbay

    Indie Author

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    IIRC, Torque has a bare bones OpenGL to D3D wrapper built in so that you can run it under D3D on Windows. There was a noticable speed hit in doing this back when I was playing around with Torque, but I doubt it is as much of an issue for 2D, assuming T2D can make use of the same system, which it probably can based on how they've described it thus far.
     
  19. Aldacron

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    That's not entirely true. Much of the 3D rendering code for the terrain and such has been removed from what I understand. TGE and T2D are two separate licenses, so to really move into 3D you'll need a TGE license (unless you roll your own on the T2D base).
     
  20. tolik

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    I'm skeptical about Torque and rendering speed test (separate things).
    I've been into SDL for 4+ (time flies and you can't notice that) years now and I know the main blame of people. Speed. A lot of people aren't into the depths of programming so they need "fast and robust engine" but what to they expect from low-level (in terms of game development) rendering engine unless they know how to work with it... Do they know about

    These are essential things in every 2D game.
    You can't get decent speed in apps on old computers with huge areas of screen refresh without dirty rectangles and other neat techniques.

    http://olofson.net/examples.html


    Every time I read some engine thread or maillist I also hear how "slow" engine "X" does work with Alphas. Too bad I don't have my "link & quote" answer to that one, but it's quite close to the one above.


    That brings us to some sort of different investigation:
    which engines made it to the casual portals? Is there a link between level of tech knowledge and popularity? Is there a trend?
     

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