The Escapist refers to this forum!

Discussion in 'Indie Related Chat' started by GBGames, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. GBGames

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. lakibuk

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    961
    Likes Received:
    0
    So who is the forum member who made more $ than Carmack?
     
  3. Sirrus

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pretty good article - mostly true too. The mindset was right on concerning most people who chose to stay in the AAA segment of the industry.
     
  4. Allen Varney

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wrote that article. I hope the folks here liked it.
     
  5. DavidRM

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see I'm going to have to promote my book more.

    -David
     
  6. PoV

    PoV
    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hehe.

    Nice read. In the same issue, Costik has a fine article about the impending doom of the games industry. I always love to read about that. :D
     
  7. Christian

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, i didnt know of the existance of that site, but its great, i readed this article http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/3/9 and i think its awesome, later im going to read yours, im sure its just as good as the other one.
     
  8. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice article and great devotion to indie scene Allen.

    Full of mistakes, wrong stamps and former heros and their statements though. ;)

    Saying seriously. Can anybody from here - even my lovely Thomas Warfield - state that his (her) particular game existing today would sell well in the next ten years? Pavlina's times have gone away guys - together with him. The competition in the area (even with a bunch of terrible titles) on the highest possible level. The wheel was invented a couple year ago and inventors got their dividends. Right now go figure how to crash all that portals around to free the area again. :)

    Is anybody ready to share with their opinions on issue.

    PS One more time - please don't take this personal Allen. OK? You made great job. Thanks a lot to you.
     
  9. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Seeing as we don't know what's going to happen saying whether they will sell well in 10 years or they won't seel well in 10 years are both equally correct (or wrong). Have to wait and see.
     
  10. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well. Unbeatable point? ;) This is not fair!!!

    OK. How about - if you can't predict and calculate - you can't do marketing at all?
     
  11. Black Hydra

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Andy - While I know nothing first hand I'd just like to comment that people are all to quick to dismiss people like Steve and Dobson. Yes, they've hit their peak, but as Pavlina said before in "adopting a 5 to 10 year strategy" the decline isn't instantaneous either. I believe Pavlina commented that 2004 was his best year yet for sales. Just goes to show that once you build up that momentum your business can still survive even if it isn't buzz on everyone's lips.

    I believe I heard James say he sold around 100 copies of Swarm a month. Swarm has been around for years and it is still selling far more than most people here sell in a year.

    And don't be so quick to dismiss the thoughts Steve points out in his articles. While many of the details on how to become successful may shift over time, most of his ideas on how he built his business could apply to most online businesses today, not just the gaming sector 10 years ago.

    I constantly hear people quote Steve saying "make 1000 to 10000 dollars a month". They quote that but that wasn't the important information in his articles. It was the end results, the determination and all those things that are basically common business info not "get rich quick" tidbits of information that fade fast.

    I'm not saying I know anything at all (read the sig) but I do know it is not wise to simply disregard a bunch of information from someone who was successful (and if 2004 is any indication of his sales) still is.
     
  12. tentons

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not anyone to know, but it seems that if you improve the production values of those same games to today's "standards," they would indeed sell in today's market. And, in fact, it seems that because they do sell in today's market there's some proof. Why wouldn't they? It's not as though people's tastes have changed. Casual game design isn't so different from these forebears.

    Edit: I do concede that it's tougher to reach people these days, and I'm tired so maybe I missed the point being made. Sorry, I'll be quiet and listen now. :)
     
    #12 tentons, Aug 30, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2005
  13. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Black H - let we agree - I haven't ever attacked Steve with his articles. I was reading them as well. And appreciated his support. OK?

    And now please look at this... Dexterity.com shows 116000 rating in Alexa (number of visitors multiplied somehow with number of pages visited) - our website shows something near 100000. Comparable. And I know what numbers we sell.
    Well. Let we say his games are increadibly better, he got another sources to sell them etc. etc. But after that all I know our numbers and know that we get the comparable number of visitors and I could make the trustful estimations.

    I say only - times have changed. And this is not fair to say that newcoming guys are bad in marketing for example. They just get no the same options anymore. Or at least old options don't work anymore. REM: Check Download.com and try to find our games in the list. REM REM: Try to get your game highlighted in PCGamer (James - am I recall correctly?)

    PS You are in trouble new guys! Publish your games as fast as possible before this train hasn't run away at all. :) Kidding. ;)
     
  14. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the difference in retail and shareware from player's point of view? What is the average life circle of retail titles?

    I'm afraid the living in tiny niche comes to be over. This area quickly becomes powered by standard entertainment and business laws. No?
     
  15. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe you're correct Andy. Make 1000$ to 10000$ from a game? quite difficult (I'd say make 100$ to 1000$ a month).

    Talking only about direct sales, since I've limited experience with portals :D

    For sure - you have to increase the quality of the titles by a lot = longer development time = less income per month spend working.
     
  16. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please welcome guys and gals - Jack Norton.
    See? A little bit lower website rating (so far). But full of fun and very special games - in another than our genres - with Mac versions as well (say thanks to PTK again Jack!) - and amounts of all possible his efforts (i know for sure). And... the same opinion.
     
  17. Black Hydra

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Andy, I'm sure your right, and I am careful to listen to every word people like yourself and others who have managed to get some success say.

    I just see a lot of bashing of people like Steve using that "1000 to 10000 dollars" quote and it seems like they weren't really listening to him at all just whining when they don't seem to have the same immediate results. (I am not talking about you here, Andy, but some others who haven't enjoyed the same success as yourself)

    While I take notice of any advice someone with some experience says, I tend to shy away from overly negative advice. A lot of people talk about how things aren't like the 'good old days' but simply make a long and educated point about how the noobs here are screwed. It's nice to balance out the overly optimistic approach to set yourself in reality, but not if it is try to dissuade people from following their dreams and selling their lives to a less risky corporate drudgery...

    That's my 2 cents.
     
  18. Andy

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Basically I'm just trying to clean up from upcoming competitors Hydra. :)
     
  19. terin

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're so Cruel

    Andy, you are crushing the dreams and aspirations of the programmers who will give other programmers the ideas they need to strike it rich!

    It all comes down to marketing in my opinion, everything always does. The media tolerance for indie games is not nearly as wide as the quantity produced.

    It is at this time I mention that people who work with me tend to end up in magazines and major media sources far more often than others :)

    Shameless self plug :) On to what I REALLY think.

    This was a fun read. It isn't 100% accurate, it isn't 100% up to speed. The general gist of things is there but it tends to ignore the many pitfalls and failures. It showed up what we wanted to see, an undiscovered goldmine in indie games. Can't blame em either.

    What Andy so unpoetically pointed out was that this goldmine has been discovered and it is chalk full of claim jumpers. If you want to make a fortune (or even a living) you have to be smart, cunning, crafty, and creative... or hire someone who is.

    I don't think the train is leaving, I think the train is on a circular track. Shareware comes and goes like the tide. Here are some facts, as I see 'em that have changed from the days the sources were used.

    Shareware is becoming more popular by volume of sales

    Shareware is getting more coverage these days by media outlets than it has recently (since the early days)

    Shareware has become more competitive both in the required quality levels and the sheer number of competitors

    Portal Games have severely shorter life-spans than the article suggests.

    Non-Portal games take longer to get going due to the increased competition.

    In the end the industry has become more profitable but less profitable per-person.

    Finally: According to economics this will stablize around where it is now. The competitive levels will balance the S curve. As the market expands the competition expands with it, as it retracts the competition will retract. The ONLY question at this point is this:

    Is there enough market share for a smart person to carve out a segment capable of sustaining them over a period of 3-5 years. The answer: Probably.

    If not the market will decline and go into recession.

    -Joe
     
  20. soniCron

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,664
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I see is a lot of unrealistic dreaming; wishing for days of yesteryear when the grass was greener and the women were buxom. ;) Seriously, when you've got thousands of new people signing up to the Internet every day and not a proportional amount of businesses doing the same, there's going to be an unnatural skew. That had to change at some point. Even so, how many more folks are trying to make indie games these days? How many folks are on the Internet buying these games these days? Have they gone up that unproportionally, or is the compliant that you can't get by selling programmer graphics and subpar gameplay on the no-longer-nerd-infested Internet anymore?

    EDIT: Wow. That came across as incredibly ignorant.
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer