"I think step 2 now is...." We STILL need TGB, PTK, demos here first before moving on. Cas - your web app fails on my machine. But your games run fine on this box. "I thought the point was comparing higher-level engines? I really don't want to be forced to worrying about things like this... that's why I'm using PTK (or BlitzMax, PopCap) to begin with!" Agreed, any TGB, PopCap, PTK coders here??????