Steve Jobs taking shots at competition

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by Makani, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. Makani

    Makani New Member

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    My latest blog post talking about Steve Job's criticism of the Galaxy Tab and his surprisingly accurate depiction of developers like me:

    Steve Jobs taking shots at Samsung

    Makani
     
  2. meds

    meds New Member

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    Poor Steve, he's freaking out because history is likely to repeat. Apple has been in a dominating position like this before, then Microsoft upped their game and Apple became niche.

    Now he's got both Microsoft and Google sniffing up his arse and he's panicking. Notice how he's always played it cool but now with Windows Phone 7 around the corner and Android eating into iPhone sales he's beginning to get edgier and edgier. He sounds more like annoyed than anything else, since he's so much against open platforms and the success of the Android is pretty much just that, he just doesn't want to believe it's possible. So he repeats a bunch of tired old philosophies which happens to also be the reason why Apple has never quite understood the way the market works: When you fill a niche you gain dominance, when you oppress the niche the competition thrives. You're choking a lot of smart people with the iPhones draconian-like closed system and Windows Phone 7/Android are the solution.

    Believe it or not Steve dears people do in fact like choice and diversity, people aren't dumb as you assert because they wont understand why one Samsung phone has a different interface to another Samsung phone or why there are different app stores. If you look at the failure of the Mac it becomes plainly obvious, creating a closed system locks you into a small niche because people are individual and have their own wants and needs. If you don't fullfill it in the absence of competition you're safe, if there is competition though you've lost them.

    This time next year iPhone will probably have lost much of its market share, then he'll be in denialism mode and explain this is how he had planned it all along, you know, to keep the iPhone all hip and individual less people have to use it.

    He's even trying to argue against 7" tablets, coming from the man who argued you didn't need Bluetooth with the first iPhone launch that's rich. I wonder what he'll say to cover it up once the inevitable 7" iPad is released. Probably nothing, he doesn't have to explain his hypocrisies to his fanbase :rolleyes:

    Ah Stevey, Stevey, Steve, if only you wold open up your own precious platform, maybe then, maybe then Google+Microsoft wouldn't take out so much of your precious iPhones install base.

    Windows Phone 7 is promising a lot, Android can grow in a near infinite number of ways, does Steve really think this diversity is bad for consumers? He'll never learn. It's not bad for consumers, it's bad for him.

    In the world of technology you are guaranteed to eventually fail if you have a lack of faith in the intelligence of your customers or if you don't believe in the abilities of third party developers. Apple suffers from both, therefore Apple will fail, as it has done in the past.
     
    #2 meds, Oct 19, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  3. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

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    100% agree on what meds said :) Open systems FTW!
     
  4. Makani

    Makani New Member

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    I also believe that people want personality in their smartphones; it's a fashion accessory. There is no way everyone in the world will want the same looking iPhone.

    However, he had an extremely valid point about developers. It's very difficult for developers to deal with so many devices. Let me give you a very nice personal example.

    I use pvrtc texture compression in Red Card Rampage on iPhone etc., and it makes a huge difference in texture load time (e.g., some scenes that would take 4 seconds to load would only take 1 second).

    Now on Android, they typically use atitc, and everything was fine, but then Motorollo Droid decides to not support atitc, and instead only support pvrtc and ETC. Well, ETC is now supported on all high-end phones, but not on the low-mid end phones which only support atitc.

    The result?

    I cannot use texture compression, unless I bundle both atitc and pvrtc versions of my textures and have it dynamically choose which one to use, or by downloading the appropriate set of textures the first time the game is run. Both these options, have severe cons, and as such Android users will have a less-than-perfect experience.

    Net answer: Any game wishing to use texture compression will provide better user experience on an iPhone than Android. Thus Steve's claim that it is 'bad' for users. Get it?

    And Steve Job really 'gets' it; he seems to really understand developer pain. I think it is too late to fix this pain on Android since the market is already full of too many variations (e.g., Droid does not support atitc; period). Of course, Android is here to stay, but to be honest, as a developer it makes me sad.
     
    #4 Makani, Oct 19, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  5. Nutter2000

    Original Member Indie Author

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    I always thought it was more that Steve "enjoys" developer pain ;)
     
  6. electronicStar

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    The problem is that you absolutely need a Mac computer to devellop on the Idevices and that's how he's shooting himself in the foot wrt devellopers.
     
  7. meds

    meds New Member

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    This sort of thing never really put J2ME at a disadvantage when it came to mobile development.

    As a software developer you should know what you're faced with, and what you're faced with is uncertainties. Steve Jobs knows it is impossible for the market to have tens of smart phones all competing and being virtually alike from a software development point of view, so he's basically saying 'look, everyone develop for iPhone, let Windows Phone 7 and Android die, then at least you'll have an easier time with your software development'.

    The argument has so far failed to work on Windows and Linux developers who understand the necessity of taking hardware nuances into account in code, why do you think it will be different with Windows Phone 7/Android? Sure it's a pain, but the smart developer will get around it and the success will come from his ability to deploy on multiple platforms with utmost efficiency.
     
  8. Makani

    Makani New Member

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    Firstly, Microsoft did the same thing and succeeded in a BIG way: apps made for windows, cannot work on any other OS. Make your apps for windows, and let the others whither away. And that's what happened. Popularity of other operating systems like MacOS or Linux came later, but is still far inferior to Windows.

    Secondly, the point is that no matter how 'smart' the developer is, sometimes it is simply not possible to provide a better experience on an 'open' system like Android than an 'integrated' system like iPhone; case in point, the texture compression example. I have no choice but to compromise somewhere on Android: Either I don't do texture compression thus longer load times for user, or I make a significantly bigger executable thus longer download times for user, or I fetch from the internet, thus unwanted data usage for the user. On iPhone, no compromise necessary.
     
  9. waruwaru

    waruwaru New Member

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    Funny, you said "no choice but to compromise", then you gave 2 more ways of handling it in your game (download, or larger exec size). I disagree with you on Steve's understanding for developer pains. I think Steve is just spouting off high level FUD where choices=bad. When there is only one way to do something, yes, it's simpler, but you are compromising on flexibility.

    I agree integration is a big selling point. That's why it's easy for people to collect more Apple products, and hard for them to get out. Some people really like the whole iTune media management. Some carriers are battling that by offering their own desktop/phone software to enhance user experiences.
     
  10. Makani

    Makani New Member

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    Both are costs and an added pain to the user compared to the same exact version on iPhone. I.e., iPhone user will have a lower data usage, lower load time, lower executable (and thus lower memory consumption). My point is that ALL 3 options are compromises.
     
  11. KNau

    Original Member

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    Oddly enough, initial public reviews of the 7" tablets have stated a preference for that form factor over larger tablets, mostly because it's more comfortable for reading and typing.

    It'll be interesting to see how things go. Many have already noted the demise of the "app" business anyways so it may be a moot point by the time it's all sorted out. These days saying you have an "app" is like saying you have a "web page", it's maybe a business necessity but naive to assume that any money will be generated from it.
     
  12. meds

    meds New Member

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    Yes they can, you port them. Microsoft isn't hell bent on keeping you on their platform by limiting you to one single obscure language and banning multiplatform solutions such as Flash.

    Since Mac was the only competition for Windows and had horrible development enviornments what do you think was going to happen? The iPhone has an extremely bad and draconian development environment, it won't last in the face of both Android and Windows Phone 7.

    So you want everyone to just buy an iPhone, deny themselves choice, make Steve Jobs happy? :rolleyes:

    Sorry, yur argument fails on a number of fronts, as a software developer myself I welcome these problems. I've fought with them plenty of times in the realm of programming and unlike you I understand it is a necessary part of it.

    If you're too afraid or unable to develop on multiple platforms then by all means, pick one and stick to it. Just don't tell me Steve Jobs understands developer pains, because if he did he would understand multiplatform development is a necessary pain, not something developers should avoid by only developing for the iPhone like nitwits.
     
  13. Jim Buck

    Indie Author

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    Not that this is very germane to the topic, but this I don't understand. Do iOS developers not realize they can use C++ instead of Objective-C? Games can be *very* portable from/to iOS in C++ with just a minimal about of "glue" Objective-C.


     
  14. Moose2000

    Moose2000 New Member

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    C# on the other hand...
     
  15. jcottier

    jcottier New Member

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    Of course they do. And most of them are coding in C++ of course. You are perfectly right about how portable the code can be. My new libs are 99% common to PC/MAC/IOS and the 1% crap remaining is here to manage the specificities of each platforms (windows/cocoa/objective-c...).

    I don't understand all this hate against Apple. Until extremely recently, I didn't have any Apple related stuff so you can't call me an apple fan :) but after playing a bit with their stuff, I can't say that it is extremely welldone.

    Some are saying that Apple is against dev??? What is this non sense? You'll find a huge amount of code/doc/examples on their dev website. And if this is not enough, you will find a lot of tutorial made by others on the net.

    After 20 years working on the PC, It is still extremely hard to move to MAC but to be honest, as my lib is cross platform, I'm spending 95% of my time coding on the PC, and only move to XCODE when I have no other solutions. And this is only because I'm not familiar with XCODE, I don't know yet all the shortcuts and stuff (I'll still probably stay on the PC for all my IOS dev as there are still some stuff pretty anoying with XCODE but in all honesty you can't call it a bad tool, far far from it).

    Now, let's have a look with Windows phone 7. Duh!!! YOU HAVE TO USE C# (you can use it for PC/XBOX/WIn7Phone that is not what I call cross platform). What a stupid choice. Until we can use C++ I won't touch this platform.

    Forget all the marketing crap coming from Apple or Microsoft. Just look at the platform for what they are and don't juge them from the comments of their guru's.

    JC
     
  16. meds

    meds New Member

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    Which is available on multiple platforms, including Linux and even OSX through Silverlight ;)

    Windows Phone 7 supports both Silverlight and Flash, even though they are supposedly in competition with each other Microsoft isn't exactly getting all upset that there are other developers trying to make it easier to develop software for their products.

    Now Apple on the other hand :D

    I wouldn't be too worried about that, it's very easy to port C# to C++ and vice versa, there will probably be byte compilers which will not be banned by Microsoft (of course we all know what Apple thinks of developers who develop using Flash).

    Uneducated rambling much? :rolleyes:

    That is true, however they still restrict what you can use to develop for the platform and make arbitrary decisions whenever they feel like (see Flash vs. Unity hypocrisy). Basically Apple dictates how you can develop on their platform based on their own company politics, Microsoft and Google are more looking out for openness to get as much software as possible on their respective platforms.
     
    #16 meds, Oct 20, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2010
  17. zoombapup

    Moderator Original Member

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    Wow, win7 wants C# only? I will steer clear there then.

    Android only really works well with java too.


    I dont think I could bring myself to buy into apple stuff just because I dont want to develop on a mac.

    So no mobile for me :) you guys keep at it, I'll develop myself a little downloadable user base while youre playing app maker thanks :)
     
  18. Makani

    Makani New Member

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    My game is in C++. Allowed me to deploy on Apple, Android, Bada, and soon to be released on WebOS and eventually Symbian.

    Forget Objective-C, anything other than C++ is shooting yourself in the foot. C# unfortunately is required for Windows Mobile 7, which is why my game is not coming to WinMo7, but given the fact that the windows market hardly even exists yet, its not a big deal. I've found pretty awesome success on the new platform Bada (see my article), so I wouldn't not discourage any of you from trying your luck at Windows Mobile 7, but in general there is NO NEED to use Objective-C unless you're not making a game.
     
  19. sindisil

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    Not sure I understand your point.

    C# is cross-platform as heck:
    • Windows
    • Linux (via mono)
    • OS X (via mono)
    • Solaris (via mono)
    • iPhone/iPad (via mono-touch or Unity3D)
    • Android (via mono-droid or Unity3D)
    • WP7
    • Web for Windows & OS X (via Silverlight, Unity3D)
    • Web for Linux (moonlight - suboptimal, but does work)
    • Microcontrolers (via the Micro Framework, see netduino)
    • Wii (via a port of mono available from Nintendo)
    • XBox360 (via XNA or Unity3D)

    Heck, I probably missed some, there, but that's no small list. I know that mono has been ported to the PS/3, as well, but the only version I know about for certain relied upon the Linux tools. I'm sure there are shops using their own ports, but, since I don't *know* for sure, I left it off the list.

    So ... what's missing there?

    Or did I miss your point?

    [edit: when editing original post to format list, I accidentally deleted the XBox360 line.]
     
    #19 sindisil, Oct 20, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  20. Moose2000

    Moose2000 New Member

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    Fair enough - that's more platforms than I realised.

    I'm coming from the position of having a big heap of C++ code, and if I can compile it as-is on a platform, I'm happy. So iOS is good (Obj-C is just a superset, so drop it in and off I go). WP7 is bad (much though I'm keen to develop for it), because I have to rewrite everything.
     

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