state of indiegamer

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by DrWilloughby, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. Mikademus

    Mikademus New Member

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    This would be excellent! And I'd recommend an enforced thread naming convention, something like "Game name - thread purpose"
     
  2. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

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    Yeah ok right :) I think the meaning is the same tho even in martian.
     
  3. Andy

    Original Member

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    Is it that famous English humor?
    Yes. English isn't my native language as you've probably noticed.
     
  4. DFG

    DFG
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    This is what happens with every successful forum once it becomes the de facto standard for whatever niche it fills. It's just the way it is - you can't ask newcomers not to post.

    There are a couple things you can do:

    1) Capitalist approach - Create a subscription area on the site and price it high enough to filter out a lot of the "noise"

    2) Elitist approach - Create an "invite only" section where you invite the more experienced members to participate. Sometimes this can just be a moderators area.

    One of the strengths of indiegamer is that it is open and not commercial in any way - which is one of its great weaknesses. There may come a time when the amount of work to keep this site quality outweighs the benefits for the owners - it really can become more than a full time job.

    Although nobody really wants to see the appove approaches implemented, it is just the way it is with successful forums. You have to cut down on the noise or the board will eventually die out as the experienced members wanting more go somewhere else to meet their needs. Then, the board is gutted of its quality posters and you are worse off than before.
     
  5. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

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    Ah right ok then, I only speak the language known as 'old fart' from the ancient English 'Pomponian' civilisation myself you see ;)
     
  6. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    With regards to noob questions I think actually people here are a bit more mean spirited than they need to be. A lot of the flack that happens and the threads that get out of control are the direct result of noobs being attacked and then responding in kind. People should try to help out or just ignore. There IS after all an indie *basics* forum which is supposed to be for beginner questions. Somtimes the noobs will react unkindly to helpful criticism but so be it. That's not an invitation for a supposedly wiser more experienced member to start an argument.

    Sure a lot of us recognize the ocassional thread where someone is way in over their head or doesnt realize how their "hey i have this nifty idea and i just need 3 programmers and two top pro artists to help me" threads can rub people the wrong way, but that doesn't mean the local crowd should pounce all over them.

    I'd be in favor of mods stepping on that right quick as well.
     
  7. Andy

    Original Member

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    Ah, so this is "old farters" offended you so much Adrian? Come on I'm all the same against you. :)

    I'm just trying not to beat noobs for being what they are:
    1. We all were noobs one day;
    2. And as Svero mentions above beating them often doesn't help.

    I'm also tired of threads "How to develop the game in a month and become rich". But what is so bad in such wish after all? They are younger. They want to grow and become stronger. As soon as possible.
     
  8. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Im still trying to make a game in a month and get rich. My latest month long game is on it's 12 or 13th month of development so there are still some kinks to work out in the scheduling.. but im working on it.
     
  9. Spore Man

    Indie Author

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    Sounds to me like what some people want is:

    1. No questions from absolute noobs. (ie: "What do I need to make a game?")

    2. Assigning "badges of honor" to users so you can distinguish the seasoned veterans from the less experienced. (ie: an icon or avatar that goes under the user name)

    Sound about right?
    Because like I said earlier, there isn't as much noise here as you really think. I used to frequent Flashkit's games forum where EVERY DAY one or more "kids" come in and ask people to tell them exactly how to "make a GTA game" or "make a MMORPG", and then they get all whiney when nobody will give them cut n paste code to use! (There are also dozens of questions every day along the lines of "How do I make bullets?", "How do I move a character?" etc)

    This site has been really valuable to me since joining, both from active daily discussions and also from older posts found by using Search. I hope it can continue (but I'm ok with the idea of moderation, and noob-ish posts being sent to a noob category if necessary). But I also wish some devs wouldn't just visit while developing their game and then bail. It's very valuable to get the insight through every phase of a product's creation, including the after-math of launching and marketing a product (I'm looking at you Pickfords! You went quiet after launching Naked War! ;-) )

    ~Ray
    ("Spore Man" formerly known as "LilGames")
     
  10. electronicStar

    Original Member

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    Exactly you hit the nail on the head, posts should be more about facts than opinion or "blog entry" type of posts. I don't mind a few opinionated threads once in a while though but it should be kept low.
    And I don't buy this "experienced indies should post more than the mundane". This really comes out very elitist, and having commercially released a game doesn't prevent some posters of being obnoxious or giving bad advice, we have seen that in the past.
    And I don't agree either with the guy who said that "noob" should stop posting their games in the "announcement forum". What does that mean?
    Noone should be deemed more worthy of speaking than anybody else.
    As anybody else I value the opinion of some posters more than others but let's not start breeding out genetic diversity in favor of inbreeding.
     
    #50 electronicStar, Sep 11, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2007
  11. sillytuna

    Indie Author

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    Sometimes freshening up a forum is a good thing in itself. It helps keep people on their toes and it's a sign of progress.

    As with all progress, some will love it and some will hate it.

    BTW: Andy - you make me laugh in a nice way, and I expect your english is rather better than my anything else ;)
     
  12. soniCron

    Indie Author

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    Trying to mix established developers with people starting threads such as:
    ...how is it supposed to end up? I always imagined Indie Basics was for questions like:
    The latter shows an established presence as a developer and a clear, thoughtful approach of taking games seriously. The former...well, that's the kind of stuff better suited for GameDev.net, no?

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want anyone to feel discouraged from posting if they have a thoughtful concern or question. But I also don't expect people should come here asking which kind of flour they should use in their cookies.

    In my humble opinion, we could do with more moderation. Is there a reason we shouldn't have more moderation?
     
  13. svero

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    So what would you do with the former topics? Just delete them? And how would you decide? There's no clear measure. It's a gray area. You're not the one who gets all the emails and pms from people saying hey where did my tread go? or can you ban this guy he's buggin me etc.. every day. So I kind of see your point but is there an obvious moderation solution to it? It's hard to quantify. I can see deleting threads in cases where there's some clear violation of a board rule but if we can't state a policy I have a tougher time with it.
     
  14. zoombapup

    Moderator Original Member

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    Who are the moderators btw? If there arent any, I'd be happy to do it. I'm on here every day anyway.

    I cant remember seeing any moderation other than spam removal. But maybe thats because it has been well done.

    Perhaps have a couple of VERY moderated forums?
     
  15. Ryan Clark

    Indie Author

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    Hey Andy,

    While I agree to some extent, I also feel that it might be guys like you and I that have changed, and not the forums. I think Pocketwatch and Grubby Games started at around the same time (we were at that IGF together, with Venture Africa and Fizzwizzle, our first games), so we've likely had a similar experience with the forums.

    At the start, the forums were very useful to me because I didn't know a whole lot about this business, and I didn't really know anyone involved in the business. Times have changed, and now I know a fair bit more about the business, and I have a number of helpful friends and contacts. As a result, I need the wisdom of these forums less than I used to. (Not that I don't still read useful stuff here; I certainly do! Just less often than in the past.)

    I also feel that the core business has changed somewhat. People are more serious, and perhaps stressed, now that downloadable games have become a big business. There's more competition, but also more potential. People are going to be more tight-lipped in such an environment.

    Anyway, indiegamer is still quite useful to me, and I certainly believe it's a big help to newcomers. A few tweaks may certainly be in order, but I'm not sure if it's possible to obtain the sort of thing you're looking for (short of a private forum for "successful indies" only -- but then newbies would be left in the dark).
     
  16. Laser Lou

    Original Member

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    I believe that labels that are based on the number of posts that the user has made encourages chatter. Doing away with them would help.
     
  17. DrWilloughby

    Indie Author

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    I think you are right about the business changing... and to be honest, there's still plenty of good stuff on here. And I certainly wasn't trying to imply that newbs shouldn't be here or should be silent.

    To be honest, I just hear enough complaints about the decline of the quality of indiegamer (and I do wish there was more solid biz talk and less fluff talk) that I thought the pot should be stirred :) May as well, you guys don't sign my paychecks :D
     
  18. Cartman

    Indie Author

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    My turn. Sorry if I repeat stuff that's already been covered.

    I'm all for the postmortem area. I've got one written up that I haven't posted yet, and was looking for the right opportunity, so I'd be happy to contribute. I would recommend an optional template that the posters could use to make sure we get some quality posts in that forum.

    Indie Gamer has gotten a little stale, however it's still my favorite forum. I do wish there was more heavy handed banning of abusive posters, and faster response to flame wars that get out of hand. Though they are entertaining at times, they seem to reduce the quality of this forum.

    On the subject of the noobs asking questions that have been asked many times, I think we should just have some boiler plate text from the moderators that says something like:
    "That is a very important question that has been discussed in detail in the forums. Please use the search tool above for detailed topics."
    And then close the thread.

    I do also wish that we would visit some of the older topics and get them updated. I'm sure things have changed in the 2-4 years that some of them have been written and a fresh perspective on them might be helpful to everyone.
     
  19. DrWilloughby

    Indie Author

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    If the FAQ were split out into various sticky thread it might help, we can point to individual thread then...
     
  20. soniCron

    Indie Author

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    In truth, steve, I would do the following:
    • Change the new member no-talk restriction to 7+ days.
    • Solicit the help of as many well-established members as are willing. (Members of the private forum?)
    • Automatically hold all threads and posts for moderation made by anyone Junior Member or below.
    • Let the people who have proven themselves worthy (established members) sort out the noise by allowing or disallowing conversations.
    Rather than a few members of "The Cabinet" having to take on the responsibility for the mass of the effort, create a strong network of responsible users to help shape the direction of these forums.

    I would trust anyone in the private forum to moderate mine or anyone else's posts with fairness, responsibility, and integrity. If we can't trust them, then what value is this forum, anyway? The new users come here to solicit advice from veterans, and so therefore the vets must be capable of deciding what is worth helping and what isn't, right?
     

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