Silverlight - name your favorite product

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by tolik, Jun 2, 2010.

  1. hippocoder

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    And they don't have much choice unless they want to miss out on the current market cap leader (apple) -

    The combined number of macs, iphones, ipads, ipods etc means there's more opengl devices than ever. The reason I have faith in this move is because Apple got rid of flash. That means vendors pretty much have no choice but to keep current with OpenGL. I know it was a chicken and egg thing, but I think this move to block flash from Apple's devices will accelerate the opengl uptake.

    The next psp and ds will be OpenGL.

    OpenGL is gaining, not declining, so its just a matter of time. You shouldn't be pulling faces since your stuff uses OpenGL so its good news :p
     
  2. PoV

    PoV
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    Yep, but this is deep rooted in the webGL project. WebGL doesn't happen without this. NACL might also depend on this too, for the PC adoption at least.
     
  3. oNyx

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    This was one of those what-if thingies, obviously.

    But yea, what other cross-platform choices are there for hardware accelerated 3D on the web without having to install some scary plugin? Would be nice if it would also run on awesome handsets like the N900... hmm... what could it be? :>

    GLES is fortunately a lot less crazy than full OpenGL. Just heard that some of the WebGL demos already work correctly. At the current pace it will be probably pretty usable in couple of weeks. And then you can also run WebGL stuff on those netbooks for example.
     
  4. bantamcitygames

    Administrator Original Member Indie Author Greenlit

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    I think web games are just a fad...
     
  5. tolik

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    Online sucks!!!!
     
  6. PoV

    PoV
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    I think games are just a fad...
     
  7. oNyx

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    Certainly. Just like buying software on some physical medium in a store. Or downloading some executable from some untrusted source and installing it manually on your machine, clicking some ok button a dozen times, and skipping over some EULA no one ever read before.

    Right now hassle-free web deployment is sorta hot. XBLA, PSN, WSC, or Steam on the PC.

    Works well and it's very convenient.

    Turns out people like convenience. It's crazy, I know.

    Web games also fall into that category. But it's sorta weird. Even with a big beefy machine and a pile of brand new epic AAA games at hand... sometimes you want to play something small and stupid. Something which loads in a few seconds and hopefully entertains you for a few minutes or so.

    I don't really know why people are like this. I don't even know why I'm like this.

    Oh and that Chrome Web Store might turn out pretty nicely, who knows?
     
  8. oNyx

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  9. hippocoder

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    I don't even use 400mhz fully yet for games.. at least I've never been cpu bound yet.
     
  10. PoV

    PoV
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    I did some native development for the N900 recently, and the one thing I found is that the graphics driver performs REALLY BADLY when NOT rendering full screen. Firmware 1.2 released just a few weeks ago fixed a plethora of issues (at least trippling my performance, since SDL wasn't setting fullscreen correctly).

    Several of these mobiles, despite being sold to consumers, are littered with bugs, defects, and flaws that are slowly getting addressed. The most solid is iOS, but it's not without its issues too.

    I guess what I'm saying is mobiles are still maturing, just like standards like WebGL are. A lot of these manufacturers have more fundamental problems to deal with first, before focusing on "toy projects" lik WebGL performance.
     
  11. lightassassin

    lightassassin New Member

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    After Toliks post I've looked into Silverlight more.

    There isn't a whole lot of program I actually use via web browser for a start, and everybody else I know plays Flash or Java games. Though, I'll say that since silverlight comes up in Windows update as a "optional" update it has a good hand there, it's already on the in-laws PC and they don't even know it's there.

    I tell you the people who are afraid to install a plugin are in the minority in my opinion, as most people are tired of popups and just press okay so they can play/watch/use their game/video/software. There is a reason that you'll find a person has 2 hard drives and C:\Program Files\ has everything installed and D drive is simply full of random files.

    I can see it spreading, only thing is nobody with a well known application is using it enough for it to become obvious that it's a usable platform.
     
  12. oNyx

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    With hardware acceleration I also don't need that much CPU power. With Java and OpenGL you can do quite a lot for example. A 500mhz desktop CPU and some Geforce1-class graphics card was good enough for classic 2D stuff like platformers, puzzles, shmups, etc. As long as you didn't burn your fill rate away everything was fine.

    JavaScript is a different matter though. It's quite a bit slower than Java. It is, however, generally faster than CPython.

    Thing is, currently Canvas rendering eats lots of CPU cycles. The rendering itself happens in software and the compositing causes another critical hit on the CPU.

    With WebGL that first issue is solved and Mozilla also got a way to solve the second one. Well, hardware accelerated 2D Canvas rendering will probably take a while. So, one really needs some space CPU cycles over there.

    Currently, WebGL on mobile phones is more like a "we are awesome, LOL" thing. It's not all that serious at this point, but imo it's cool that there is some visible progress.

    Silverlight is a solution looking for a problem. Sorta like Java-FX.

    It doesn't really add anything. It's raison d'être is allowing people who are familiar with C# (etc.) to put some interactive stuff onto websites - if and only if - they don't care about market penetration, are too lazy to learn something new, and totally don't care about mobile phones or non-Windows PCs.

    Anyone who goes down that route without receiving a nice pile of cash from Microsoft is just foolish. (IMO, obviously.)
     
  13. PoV

    PoV
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    Yes, definitely "LOL".

    I have no idea if WebGL will ever turn in to something practical and useful, but the related projects Angle and NACL definitely look a-lot more promising.
     
  14. hippocoder

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    Something browsers are fighting to fix with more Jit etc, and javascript acceleration - see latest safari patch for instance.
     
  15. J Fizzle

    J Fizzle New Member

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    What if you want your XNA game playable in the browser? What if you want a downloadable Mac version of your XNA game? Silverlight seems like the best solution to both of these problems. And there's Windows Phone 7. And it also has right-click and mouse wheel support, which apparently flash doesn't have(?)
     
  16. JeBuS

    JeBuS New Member

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    Except that the only XNA games that can be ported to Silverlight are those that are 2D in nature. At which point... well, there's Flash.
     
  17. oNyx

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    I'm certain it will. It's currently a bit rough around the edges. Some of the details were just fixed and things like array buffers (which will make working with binary files a lot nicer and way faster) aren't there yet.

    We will see WebGL in stable builds of Firefox, Chrome/Safari, and of course on Android devices. There is no official statement from Opera yet, but I'm sure they will follow suit.

    Android in particular is pretty intriguing. Second generation devices support OpenGL ES 2.0 and V8 (Chrome's JavaScript engine) runs very well on Android (or more generally: on ARM CPUs). So, the discrepancy between Java's and JavaScript's performance is a bit smaller there than on the desktop, since V8 is currently the best JS engine on the planet whereas Dalvik is just an ok-ish VM.

    Dalvik just recently got JIT capabilities though, which made the difference bigger again. It still isn't on par with Sun's (desktop) JVM. It probably is somewhere in the middle between V8 and Sun's JVM.

    Oh yea, almost forgot this. It's f-ing awesome that today's handsets got a CPU which got a proper FPU. Using fixed point in Java is now entirely pointless. And it's also great for JavaScript because it only supports IEEE 754 floating point (aka double) and nothing else.

    V8 generates native code right away and TraceMonkey/JägerMonkey use some tracing JIT.

    V8 still gets faster with almost every minor update and JägerMonkey is catching up.

    There is still quite a lot of room for improvements. The garbage collection schemes for example are nowhere near Java's sophisticated G1 garbage collector. But I'm sure they will get to that level one day.
     
  18. hippocoder

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    It's important to not get carried away with what games you want on the web.

    Web games to me mean:

    - small files, quick to load
    - fun and short or mmo ish and repetitive
    - can play the same game wherever I am on any device


    So really its not a web game, but a game I can waste time on when I am at a computer. Does this mean that we need native code speeds? I will argue not, and that we just need something that will work on as many devices as possible with no plugin dependancy for the future, using hardware acceleration and basic shaders (which even entry level hardware ought to have on a mobile phone).

    I still think "proper" downloadable games have their place on consoles and actual devices. I think web games are likely to overtake on desktops. People like to keep msn up on one bit of the screen, facebook on the other and play an engaging indie game they BOUGHT.... (we can dream, right?)
     

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