Silverlight - name your favorite product

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by tolik, Jun 2, 2010.

  1. princec

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    The fact is Flash is a perfectly good tool. Really. It is perfectly good. There is nothing actually wrong with it. Some developers whinge about bugs, some developers whinge about the fact that it's proprietry (I mean seriously who gives a flying feck who owns it). But the reality is there's one daft company that won't support it on their daft devices and to be blunt, that'll be the death of them in the end. They're a tiny fraction of the the market. Tiny. HTML5 solves no problems that Flash hasn't already solved, better, 10 years ago. Even Java works better, haha. Silverlight works as well too. They're all perfectly good. I just can't see why engineers keep on wanting to reinvent this wheel.

    Cas :)
     
  2. Jack Norton

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    My only complaint is not being able to use the language I want (guess which is it! it's the name of a big snake :D).
    I mean, I don't think anyone should be forced to learn a specific language. So rather than see HTML5-6-7 or Flash 150, I would prefer to have same features as actual Flash/Silverlight etc but being able to code in C/java/python/anything...
     
  3. oNyx

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    I sorta agree with Cas, but I really like targeting both platforms. I also think it's great that I get instant turn-overs by having HTML5 as primary target. But, to be honest, my main motivation is that it's just very interesting to solve these all problems.

    Coincidentally, I'm in the rare position to have in-depth knowledge of all relevant technologies and concepts (JavaScript, AS3, Apache, Java, (M)XHR, WPO, etc.). Being able to finally do something useful with all of that is really exciting.

    At my current day-job (I'm a front-end engineer) I don't get the chance to apply most of my relevant knowledge. It's really frustrating and f-ing mind-numbing.

    I just have to do this. There is no other option.


    Flash isn't very usable for 3D stuff though. WebGL can do so much more there. The Mozilla guys recently got rid of the compositing overhead. Now you can render stuff at full HD resolutions at >200fps. Before that fix you could only get like 20fps - even if the scene was completely empty.


    @Jack

    http://code.google.com/p/pyjamas/

    Haven't used it myself though. But it's probably worth checking out.
     
  4. Jack Norton

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    Wow, now that's interesting. Thanks will surely check it out!
     
  5. hippocoder

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    The problem with flash isn't flash, its just that its entirely limited to well... flash and will continue to be limited to flash and expand at the rate the adobe plugin people decide.

    Thats wrong because in 10 years where is the 3d hardware acceleration? Where are the things that will move the web forwards? And on all devices?

    Thats right, flash hasn't moved an inch. Its still a pile of shit on all mobile devices, it still crashes my macbook endlessly. Its a joke which is long past its sell-by date in the year 2010. Say it, it rolls off the tongue : 2010.

    Games were hardware accelerated over 10 years ago - and smoothly at that. Do we really want another 10 years of flash?

    I am not an apple fanboy I am a "web technologies should be open like the spirit of the original internet" fanboy.

    I believe that the web should be driven by open technologies which aim to expand and improve for the sake of the world, not for the sake of one greedy little company wanting more.

    Html5 and WebGL will get us - basically - doom3 and beyond in a browser without any problems - on all web gl compatible devices. Flash will never get that on all devices. Ever.

    That to my mind, is flash holding the world back.
     
  6. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I've said it before, but that description could almost be iTunes on the PC. For 2010 on my pretty decent machine, the speed at which it runs is so much of a joke it makes Flash look like a gift transported here by aliens in the year 4000. Not only that, but Apple took 4 years and 11.5 months to fix a simple bug in the x64 version of Quicktime. Companies screw up, and companies fix things. Anything's possible.

    If I can have hope that one day iTunes won't run worse than Crysis on an Eeepc, you can believe Adobe will do something with Flash. There's no point throwing around 'never' word.
     
  7. Reanimated

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    I think HTML5 is brilliant and it will be cool to see an increase in uptake. The only problem, however, is the fact that many consumers (especially companies), don't bother upgrading their browser. As a developer, this means having to recreate a non-html 5 version of the site. Of course, certain things will simply 'fall back' but as a web-designer, you need to ensure a decent experience across the board. Therefore, rounded corners have to be drawn rather than simply called from CSS to support certain browsers (IE :mad: ).

    Granted, the flip side is that user will have to download a plugin to run Flash or SL, but it's a lot more seamless to do that than to upgrade the entire browser (which can seem daunting to many technophobes).
     
  8. princec

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    But there's nothing wrong with that! Flash grows at the rate that it possible to grow it. Just as HTML5 will take 10 years to catch on too.

    Who cares about all devices? Flash was conceived for the desktop - works great there. And thank god it hasn't had 3d hardware acceleration so far because then it'd be guaranteed to be broken. Hardware acceleration is the bane of games deployment - can you imagine how totally broken the web would be if sites started relying on hardware acceleration merely to render? Yes that's right, totally broken. So Flash plays it nice and safe and it's guaranteed to work nicely. The blame falls squarely on shoddy OEM drivers and Windows here. Intel in particular, but all of the other crappy vendors as well - Matrox, S3, etc.

    No, this is dead wrong on many counts. The two main ones being:
    1. Without OpenGL drivers that work, WebGL is up a certain creek without a certain instrument. Even with drivers that work there is still voodoo. You'll get reliability maybe on a par with what I achieve in Java. That, frankly, is not reliable enough for general purpose use.
    2. There is absolutely nothing stopping Adobe from putting the GL API into Flash 11, aside from the problems in 1. But they could do it to allow specialist stuff such as games to try it out.

    Flash doesn't hold the world back for most of us: it keeps it stable, nice and constant, it doesn't keep paradigm shifting itself into complexity and instability and brain-melt.

    Cas :)
     
  9. andrew

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    Look, in the end, make your game in whatever you want to make it in. I don't know where the web will be in 10 years, I personally just care about making arbitrary user X be able to play game Y while minimizing hassle. I don't need to make Doom 3 in a browser, so Flash 10 is a perfectly capable tool with a 97.2% install rate.

    HTML5 and WebGL are all great, and someday they might be perfectly supported in all browsers, and we'll all jump for joy. And Flash is actually probably holding the world back (although it was created to fix a problem that, well, HTML caused in the first place).

    I am curious how you all think this will solve your iPhone/iPad problems? You can't sell an HTML5/Javascript app in the App Store, Apple is banning cross-compiled apps left and right. Or you're just assuming it'll be viewable in Safari? In which case how do you monetize it?

    - andrew
     
  10. Jack Norton

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    I'm not anti-flash or pro HTML5 or anything but your question is easily answered: through any payment system.
    I suppose you can access paypal from ipad safari? or it's banned from apple?
    In that case, like many MMO/online/webgames do, just buy credits/items/subscriptions in game through paypal or other vendors.
     
  11. ggambett

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I completely agree with Cas, for two posts in a row. Something's wrong ;)
     
  12. Maupin

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    Development on the iPhone/iPad seems a little risky to me now. If tomorrow Apple suddenly banned Paypal or some other payment processor on their mobile platform I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow.

    (But dammit just a few days ago I was in an Apple store and got to play around with an iPad for the first time. I can see many possibilities and would really like to develop for it!)
     
  13. oNyx

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    "originally written in [...] JavaScript"

    So there. Seems like you totally can.

    You can also sell it through the Chrome Web Store or just put it online and puts some ads everywhere.

    (Thanks for ignoring my other reply, by the way.)
     
  14. hippocoder

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    iTunes runs like crap on my mac. Whats the point of what you are saying? Don't keep tying html5+ with apple. What I am enthusiastic about has nothing to do with apple at all.

    I am very strongly behind html5 + webgl, this is nothing to do with macs. I am against Flash because its had its day: its a dinosaur and I am supporting the future of the web.

    My comments might make some people here angry, but let me assure you if we met in real life I would probably make you smile and we would be friends. I am not here to annoy you, I am just 100% passionate and behind this new web standard.
     
  15. hippocoder

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    How to tell your html5 on ipads and iphones as apps, legally -

    Your html5 app is viewable and runnable right now from your home screen just like any other app on ipad or iphone. Go here on your idevice:

    http://www.brainiumstudios.com/webapp/

    And then click the link there and it will install the app onto your home screen on the iphone or ipad, and it is playable just like any other app via a very clever use of bookmarking a home link. It plays like a native app and its a very fun idea from that developer. Kudos to him.

    This was linked to from Apple themselves and Jobs said in response that they have no plans on restricting this... (read: they probably can't restrict it) - so you probably can sell html5 apps on the web, for the ipad/iphone - right now.

    If the ipad's fast enough - it will probably run flash content via interpreter to html5 on idevice right now.

    So flash can be on the iphone or ipad, but not at acceptable speeds.

    I hate to come across as a fanboy because I'm not: I'm very passionate about indie development - heck I even turned down a night of hanky panky with a lady to meet deadlines back when I was doing flash game work. I really do appreciate flash, but I also really do think flash is done for and should be buried as soon as we can bury it collectively as developers.
     
  16. Bad Sector

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    Actually one of the several stuff that people skip over when reading about HTML5 is the ability to create offline web applications. These are applications which are opened from a web site (they are web sites) but then they're stored locally (there is a manifest file which mentions what files each app requires so they can be downloaded for later use). I tried it with a simple one and it actually works in every modern HTML5 browser, including Mobile Safari.

    Apple even has documentation about it and it's available since iPhone OS 2.1 days.

    How to monetize it? As mentioned above, by using any payment processor. Once the user pays for the game, redirect him to a site with the above manifest. Using some Apple-specific stuff you can even create a launcher (with custom icon, etc) on the "desktop".
     
  17. PoV

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    You're completely right. This is their solution:

    http://code.google.com/p/angleproject/

    An OpenGL ES 2.0 driver (interface) that sits on top of DX9. So in theory, any DX9 compliant card should be able render the content (GMA).

    Not that I'm supporting the web argument, just I think it's a cool project. I'd love to be able to cheat DX support with such a library.
     
  18. oNyx

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    If merely displaying the everyday web would require correctly working OpenGL drivers, even Intel would have some.

    The environment dictates which kind of entities can exist within. Or as arQ liked to put it: Evolve or cease to exist.
     
  19. princec

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    Sadly not. No working GL drivers means no-one is foolish enough to do anything serious with it means no take up means no working GL drivers. Same old same old. People only start using stuff massively when it becomes massively reliable or when they have absolutely no other choice.

    Cas :)
     
  20. princec

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    This has been tried several times but for some reason the result is always utter shit. But best of luck to them.

    Cas :)
     

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