RetroRunner

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by meemoe_uk, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    I, for one, agree totally, and I like your ideas on how to moderate this place.

    If you were to set up your own invite-only forum, I for one would be happy to join (should I get invited) or just read (if the forum would be open for anyone to view, but only invited people could post)
     
  2. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

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    Other than make the forum private/invite only then I don't see a way forward here unless the moderation here is much, much better as you say.

    Personally I don't really want to see a private/invite only indie gamer forum tho - that's just not in the spirit of indie to me at least. Some noobs yet to come here in future will no doubt have great ideas to bring to the pot to further inspire the jaded and tired old gits amongst us like me.

    I have no other answers but I do wish some noobs would get real before they post - half the stuff that is brought up also has been done time and time again on here which is totally boring.

    Ho hum back to work :)
     
  3. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    So how about this - let's grant full posting status to the people who currently sell games, or otherwise makes valued contributions (though I probably don't qualify for either myself :p )

    Everyone else can read, but their posts needs to be reviewed and approved by moderators before appearing. Maybe we don't even need to apply this to replying to threads, it might be ok to just require it for new threads.

    Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't. I say it's worth a shot.
     
  4. tolik

    Original Member

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    There are 3 problems:

    1) Exposure - the forum is well-visited, however it has no site, not even a blog that highlights the top discussions or even exclusive beta announcements. There should be highlights through blog. There should be a facebook group where all of us will present the forum and throw in announcements to our friends and a way to cross-promote the game through reposting/sharing with friends. What the heck, there should be a twitter group that will throw exclusive beta-test calls. Having 1 reply to a post is not enough. Not even mentioning worthless attempts to put any gametunnel announcements to digg. Digg is all about paid exposure, there's reddit.com and stumbleupon. There are better places to give exposure, when properly arranged.

    2) Knowledge transfer. There are no sticky posts with any kind of knowledge database, pointing to tigsource, indiegames, industry sites, etc. This should be handled much better and communicated in sticky threads and through blogroll list. This forum must start to get exposure elsewhere. What the heck, we barely see cool games noticed from the outside industry and never discuss them. I see poor SHMUPs being released all the time without anyone saying "please play good games, please play proper games, please innovate, please look at those 100 freeware shmups that are freaking better than yours".
    What the heck, we don't even embed youtube videos with cool games here. We are stuck in a stone BBS age!

    3) The mess. I'm strictly against any pre-moderation. Let people post without restrictions and moderators will fix the mess. The only mess there is a structure of the forum. It needs to be reworked and at least 1 year old archive must be re-sorted properly. The only thing moderators should do (besides spam and bad behaviour) is to move the threads to proper forums and if they see a good game that deserves exposure, highlight it in the blogs.
    Yes, it is hard to distinguish the noise between good posts and the bad thing is that indie badge is down. While there's some elite private forum, it's no use to everyone else.
    There should be a naming convention for threads to add a platform before the post, e.g. "[iPhone] megagame released!". It is currently honored by some members, but if moderators will be manually renaming the threads to have prefixes, it will simplify the search through forum and any n00b who will come will see that entire game-related forums have these prefixes.
    There should be proning of freelancer announcements. Most of the links to their portfolios don't work anymore, I've tried to reach 10 of them once and barely 3 answered.

    The forum should bring some inspiration to people and push the edge.
    I was moderating the 100k+ pages industry forum in Russia, along with participating in a mobile games forum 5 years ago in Russia where developers were posting screenshots from cool newly released games and each time with their new release tried to reach Gameloft and jump even further.

    blah blah, need some food now
     
  5. Cevo70

    Cevo70 New Member

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    I am having trouble interpretting exactly what you guys are wishing for, but the last thing I want to do is to be a cancer on this community. Most of you responded that you do in fact gain satisfaction from helping new devs, but then seem to go on to wish we weren't here.

    I honestly didn't know this was a place only for those who are already pros and are selling games full time. I thought there would be some room for those of us working on our first game, looking for honest advice to help make a good game, and then get it out there (which is quite imposing the first time around).

    Many of us are credible and modest people trying to get over that first hurdle. Some are jackholes who probably should come back in 5 years once they gain better perspective. I would just ask/hope that you don't weed out the good with the bad.
     
    #65 Cevo70, Mar 28, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  6. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    My take on this isn't as extreme as tolik's (never thought that'd happen).

    I'm quite happy to see n00bz come along looking for help, as long as its relevant help.

    Some example n00b posts that I think are fair play:

    1) "Here's my hobby game, can I sell it? how?" (Note that this is only good if the game looks like or betters its peers and is not in fact something that's obviously unmarketable. See O/P)

    2) "Guys, I really want to go full time at this. I have industry experience and I can actually write decent games, but I'm a bit wobbly on stuff like selling shit from my own website, PR, etc."

    Here's some rammel I'd love never to see again:

    1) See first post

    2) "Anyone care to tell me if gamemaker is better than popcap?"

    3) "How do I do animate a sprite?"

    4) "I've written a really shit tetris/match3 clone. Can I get feedback?"

    All of the above go better at www.gamedev.net

    Don't worry. This flares up every few months and nothing ever happens. Usually it's people like me and tolik who get shot down in flames for causing a problem. And someone is bound to say "well you don't have to stay" and whereby I'm tempted to just fuck off. But then I think if everyone did that it really would just be a n00b on n00b waste of space so I stay. And round we go again...
     
    #66 Applewood, Mar 28, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  7. Cevo70

    Cevo70 New Member

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    More power to you then. Hang in there, because you may not realize exactly how much help you are providing. It's not always tangible.
     
  8. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    I think a lot of valued members have done just that. I remember when I used to come by this forum just to read - back then, I never felt that anything I had to say was at the same level as what the other posters was talking about. Now, it's mostly just noise (and I'm contributing as much as anyone else).

    I'd be happy to go back to just reading though, if the focus was generally noise-reduced.

    I just feel there's so many other dev communities where noobs can show off their work and answer basic questions on programming - I'm frequenting some myself, helping out when I can - but does this really need to be another on of those?
     
  9. JGOware

    Indie Author

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    You know......everything would have been fine if the op would have left out 2 words... "6 years". What on earth was he thinking? Otherwise, perhaps there should be sub cats in the announcement section:

    Online, Freeware, Downloadable, Premium.

    Premium is a highly moderated cat which the game is verified to be "above" average quality, otherwise it goes to one of the other cats.
     
  10. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

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    Actually, looking at the list of todays posts, it's not too bad - most threads are about what I would consider relevant and valuable information for this site.

    I think the problem is more the feedback and announcement forums - there's a lot of good stuff there, but there's also a lot of posts which I think doesn't belong: obvious stuff like not having screenshots (which is *required*), some things quite far from being suitable to sell, and even some crappy freeware which certainly doesn't belong at a business-oriented forum (I'm surprised that one wasn't deleted, to be honest).

    Maybe we just need tighter moderation on feedback and announcement forums?
     
  11. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I remember that after last of these flare ups (an argument about how professionally targetted this site should be), I said I was going to provide honest feedback treating everything I saw as a professional release you may expect EA to have announced in a parallel universe.

    But I counted up in a week how many times a one phrase "It's wank" post would need to be rolled out and even I couldn't be that grumpy! :)
     
  12. AlexWeldon

    AlexWeldon New Member

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    Wow... monster thread. I've only skimmed the longer posts, but having gotten the general idea of what everyone's saying, I'd like to say three things:

    1) The hostility is, I think, a defense that certain members here have evolved in order to keep the forum useful for professionals. There's a certain category of egotistical, inexperienced, usually young, fanboyish self-taught programmer who is detrimental to the community, not because they make crap games, but because they make crap games and hold them up as examples that the more experienced programmers should aspire to, and go around offering everyone bad advice on issues they know nothing about, or else only posting their own threads and never reading anyone else's. The thing about these types is that you can usually tell who will turn out to be one of them by their first few posts... by insta-flaming them, you chase them off and nip the problem in the bud before they have 100 posts and feel like they've invested enough of their precious time that they should stick around when they're not wanted.

    2) Ceve70: You sound exactly like me when I first came here and saw noobs getting flamed. Applewood was the guy who told me, "Don't worry, you're already a valued member of the community. We know you're not one of those morons." So I'll tell you the same thing... you're clearly not one of those morons, so don't worry that we're going to turn around and blast you next.

    3) Add to Applewood's list: "hi i just graduated high school and will be starting my first year of comp sci in the fall. my friends and I are making an MMORPG like World of Warcraft but with more ninjas lol! we have a team of 4 people, but we think we need at least 6 to make something as good as wow so I wanna know if ne1 wants to help us. we can't pay anything now, but we expect it to make at least $250k and we will share it evenly among all of us email me at worldofgaiden@gmail.com if ur interested"
     
    #72 AlexWeldon, Mar 28, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  13. tolik

    Original Member

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  14. Cevo70

    Cevo70 New Member

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    Thanks Alex.

    Oh and I just sent you an email about your ninja MMORPG. Let's do this. I have no skillz but lots of good ideas. ;)
     
  15. meemoe_uk

    meemoe_uk New Member

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    Moving back on topic,

    If there's anyone here interested in playing the game, I've fixed the 'can't move' bug. I'd simply forgotten to set the default keys.

    The old version will work, but you've got to set the keys yourself from the redefine menu.

    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jmqznd3eajz
     
  16. 320x240

    320x240 New Member

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    I finally managed to play your game a little and I like it so far. The controls are tight and the speed is just right. I see now that it is indeed a real Loderunner clone and one that doesn't mess with the premise of the original to much. I have a feeling a lot of thought have gone into this one and it certainly plays better than Irem's efforts, decent as they are. A new set of graphics could make it really shine.

    I would have liked for the walls to grow back a little bit quicker though and that the tutorial level would have been smaller and less bewildering. The scrolling made me a little dizzy too. Is there a way to make it more 'uniform' without compromising the gameplay?
     
  17. Uhfgood

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    #77 Uhfgood, Apr 7, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  18. meemoe_uk

    meemoe_uk New Member

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    Thanks for the review Uhfgood. I know RR looks unfinished, but I like this look. It distinguishs it from the current trends of 'bubble wrap' \ 'kitchenware appliance' presentation and graphics games, and also distinguishes itself from games that are going for overt maximum retro, like 'don't look back'.
    To coin a name for the graphics style, I'd call it 'raw', or 'engineers workshop'. I always found engineering workshops more interesting places than kitchen show rooms. Amongst other things, they have an honesty about them that can be immediately recognised and trusted. i.e. no BS here, just raw exposed functionality.
     
  19. Uhfgood

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    Well the main question you have to ask yourself is, are you doing this for yourself, or are you doing it so other people could have fun with the game? If you're doing this game for yourself, then more power to you. If you're doing it for other people to play you're going to have to realize most people don't really care how it "distiguishes" itself from everything else out there. If people don't think it looks all that great, they aren't going to play it no matter what you say it is. The ones that have played it because of the early 90's "windows" look, are a very, very, small niche, those play it despite the graphics being what they are. Even smaller than those that normally enjoy retro-styled games.

    This is sort of the same thing as black and white tv and movies. Most of the younger generation just can't stand black and white regardless of how good the show or the movie is. The only thing you can do about that is colorize it, then maybe some will watch. (I had read the first season of the American television series I Dream of Jeannie had been released in it's original black and white, and how after they had re-released it with the colorized version, the colorized version outsold it)

    Same thing with your game, most people won't bother to download it because of how it looks. I'm not saying you should change it, but be aware of the fact that not as many people will play it.
     
  20. Backov

    Original Member

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    Interesting. So would you call yourself an artist or an engineer?
     

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