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Discussion in 'Announcements' started by meemoe_uk, Mar 19, 2009.
That's about 10 minutes per week, or a single 10 hour day once a year.
Well yeah, that goes without saying. But you can usually tell from the tone of the first post whether or not the person's going to be receptive to criticism. If someone says "Look at this awesome (whatever) I made," and it sucks, you can bet they're going to start mouthing off when people with 10x the talent and 100x the experience tell them they're not as hot shit as they think they are.
Conversely, I hate it when a newcomer posts something not so great but is modest about it, and everyone ridicules them. That's not cool, since anything we do, we all started off as a noob... but most of us knew we were no good when we started and were willing to learn, or else we couldn't have gotten any better.
But therein lies the answer as to how this person could spend six years on something and still have it suck - unwillingness to accept that there's any need to improve.
What's really sad is when friends and family say crap like, "wow..that's a good game, good job, very impressive, you're a game coder!" and then you set up your page, get your commerce site up and running, advertise on a few sites, and no orders come in. That first taste of reality is very shocking some times. And then you think...wow...in the same time span I could have been serving fries and made more money. yikes.....
Yeah... everyone thinks they're doing a favour by being encouraging, but I'd much rather get praise from strangers and honest criticism from friends than the other way around. Fortunately, my friends and family tend to be very honest with me, but ever since I moved away from board games and into computer games, they just don't know enough to be particularly helpful. But at least they're honest about that too, rather than just telling me they think everything I do is awesome when they have no frame of reference to judge it by.
I couldn't actually get past the first sign either, so I can't comment on the actual gameplay, which is a pity, as I love games such as this. I wonder if it's really a Loderunner clone though and not more of a generalized platformer with a cave-dwelling hero. Personally I hate it when scrolling is employed in a Loderunner-clone, as being able to see what the enemies are up to at all times is so vital to the game. This could be a good game nontheless. I'm in the process of finishing something similar myself.
The general impression I get from the presentation of the game is that while care has gone into it the parts that are directly linked with the gameplay, like the redefinable keys, other parts have not had much work done on them at all. It's like you made the designs a long time ago and never bothered to update them through the years. This really comes across as laziness rather than a certain style or attitude and I think it is this that rubs people the wrong way. Underneat this rough exterior the game could be a shining diamond, but it is up to you to polish it so that it can shine.
I don't think the first post was too "This game rocks and I'm ace". It states a goal and asks "Have I succeeded?, which is OK. The only bit of blow own trumpet is "it's pretty tidy". So perhaps the responses are a little harsh (even if the content is accurate).
You missed the bit about this game being better than the original...
I have to admit, it scares me a bit to see this sort of reaction from the people I aspire to be like, and hope to have to give me feedback on my project at some point.
Of course I tend to act and present myself as the beginner that I am, so maybe I won't unleash quite the same wrath. I am also working with some obvious talent on my team which is nice.
My concern is that younger devs, foreign devs, or those just having trouble conveying tone via text are going to get mishandled here. I honestly didn't think he was being anything more than a "hype man" for his own game which is more just a bad approach I guess if you're truly looking for feedback.
Still though, I have a hard time understanding the raw anger and cruelty. I am not in your shoes, so I am sure it's a different perspective.
I think that a big part of it is that many of us still think of this forum as a place for professional indies to exchange ideas on how to sell games - and not so much a place for people new to game making to hang out for a laugh.
I do wish people would lurk for a longer time before posting - then maybe we would have less of this...
I really doubt you'd get the same reaction.
Eh, give the guy a break -- are all the snarky comments really necessary?
Yeah, it looks dated (not in a good way), and it's head-scratching how it took 6 years to make, but maybe there's a market out there for the world's most sped-up Lode Runner clone. Who knows. At least he got something finished, unlike 95% of people on gamedev forums.
Well, the people in here know. Although that's not actually true anymore. Most people here seem to be n00bs looking to pat each other on the back instead of learning something.
Yes. And it wasn't always like that... pity
I hear yah. Hopefully you guys still have a nice internal network of communication for higher-level talk.
I am learning a ton here though, my project is benefiting as a result, and I think in general there is a really healthy exchange of ideas among all kinds on these forums. That's definitely thanks to large proportion of professionals compared to other forums. Hopefully you do gain some satisfaction from helping less experienced devs.
Of course we do. That's why we're here. But having been around for a while, means we're not so inclined to sugar-coat everything - and those who have a hard time dealing with that, might be better off at other forums that have a more encouraging focus.
Absolutely. Speaking for myself, I love doing that, as I remember what it was like for me starting out without the internet. I'm in two other threads right now being helpful and polite.
What I won't stand for is know-nowts arguing with experienced professionals. If you come here as newbie, show a bad attitude, show a really bad game and then start arguing the toss with old hands when you're at post #1, then the story will run very different..
So i did.
So maybe if some pros are getting fed up of noobs flooding the forum (but don't forget we were all noobs once) they should use the private forum more often (it's pretty much dead). Or maybe the announcements can be split into pro and hobby announcements? There's also the feedback thread of course but that can be for work in progress right? Just looking for possible solutions...
No amount of rules will change anything. This forum's very name states that it's for independent game developers, which rules out hobbiests and n00bz.
The problem is, if anyone has ever loaded a png from a file, they seem to consider themselves independent game developers nowadays.
I don't even mind the n00bz tbh, just not those who think they know more than we do.
We've been here before.
Although I rarely agree with anyone (being fully indie in every repsect) and a grumpy old git with a hangover today LOL... I have to agree with Applewood here in the most part. Noob's should be made welcome here but perhaps in playpen area or just lurk for a while longer so they can get a grip on true indie reality first, before coming in here all guns and telling the pro's how it all is etc. blah, whatever, gets very boring.
True we all had to start somewhere and new talent will always needed in any industry to make real progress, but not at the price of forgetting to learn some respect for your peers who probably know more than you perhaps do currently in the universe of indie games.
By the way i'm not statiing I am a pro at anything in particular - I'm not, but I am an old git which gives me some wisdom points by default if nothing else in this biz
To hijack this thread even more, I'd say this looks n00bish and has nothing to do with Indie. That is a mediocre student test assignment in CS.
Anyone here could update their 10 year old sources and say
AWESOME! IT FEELS JUST LIKE IT MUST FEEL, NOT LIKE A CRAPPY X360 VERSION!!! AND IT'S UNDER 64K!!! TOOK ME 10 YEARS TO MAKE THIS BLOCK PROPERLY ROTATE SO IT FEELS AUTHENTIC!!!
This should've been moved to a special "n00b" game subforum which doesn't exist. We have too many of n00b stuff posted that detracts from the long gone cool image of the forum that was here with all the beta tests of exciting products that rarely pop in, get 3 comments and go out of the front page in favor of updates and some free gfx packs. What would these beta products get on our forum? Few posts how the screenshots are cool, but I didn't play the game. Great. I haven't seen any great gameplay or biz analytics here in years.
If you'd be a n00b here nowadays and would look at that forum, you'd see a lot of n00b games, content packs, alternative platform releases and some game update news.
The forum isn't educating noobs with at least a proper sticky post that f*cking leads them to news sites, such as indiegames.com/blog/ to give them a feeling what is a modern indie freeware spirit is about, what is indie about and what should've been an open source game engine or something. How about "Please play decent games and make decent games."?
This forum missed a transition between original underground indie scene that was represented by GameTunnel few years ago and a modern that is represented by all those teams who only announce their games on this forum after they pop up on Steam & IGF, not while they are in development as the forum simply stopped lacking credibility.
There are few things that you'd see on the forum nowadays:
- n00b freeware that is represented by gamemaker community that eventually started to have it's awesome pearls! but we never experience any of those here as the guys don't get out of their communities.
- middleware/game engines that are that aren't properly exposed and explained and still don't deserve a special section
- the forum caught a strong wave of casual, though, but since then lost the traction as it never exposed it properly
- alternative platforms that never deserved their own section - so people visiting this forum lacked a feeling it welcomes them, however now everything is flooded with iPhone so other decent games get buried
- we have a total lack of professional freeware dudes that are all about creativity - represented by indiegames.com/blog/ and IGF
- online transition was welcomed as "boo flash lame!!!" until the crisis striked and advertisement prices have gone down. just some local rebels here post decent stuff that nobody takes serious while it's more important than another n00b game.
A lack of proper forum restructuring a year ago made it oversaturated by people who didn't move on and are rebelling against the change. There's no proper forum structure that will explain any person coming to this forum that it welcomes any platform. Once again, a lack of product sorting by platform/technology makes good games simply buried instead of staying where they should be noticed. A ranking system inside the forum should really encourage people to post better games and make better games...
It lacks moderation. It lacks direction, where moderators would lead people instead of providing them a greasy SANDBOX saying "well there's all that great legacy, try to get what you are into".
Adrian, how would they get a tune of Indie? By checking long abandoned links at the bottom of the forum - like Retro64 and Twilight Game sites? They must be properly taught, and this forum leaves it entirely up to them.
Freaking give me admin rights and I'll fix that grease and lead it.