Pro-internet piracy party on course for EU seats

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by chrisroyale, May 22, 2009.

  1. Dave TZ

    Dave TZ New Member

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    Well, yeah, I don't see that working well. :)

    Slightly off-topic: I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone has suggestions for what to say in that sort of situation. My hunch is that all you could possibly do is post about how you're an indie and how this sort of thing hurts you. Sure, it's extremely unlikely to win over the pirates concerned, but to anyone else reading it might make them look like jerks and swing you some sympathy. (And maybe also shut down the links if you can.)
     
  2. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    I know. But if this guy got beaten to a pulp in a police cell, can you imagine his face when the police officer said "I know I'm not supposed to beat the crap out of you. But I do it because I want to, and I can. And frankly I don't care".

    Society has to have rules. Not everyone will agree with the rules all the time, but if you want to live without rules, spend your holidays in Somalia and the mountains of Afghanistan.

    Bah.
     
  3. papillon

    Indie Author

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    You're not a fanfic fan. And probably not a comics reader either. :)

    Re-interpreting existing characters in different settings and circumstances is INTERESTING. (For some people.) "What would happen if the main character were five years younger and the opposite gender? What would happen if this story took place during WWII? What if the hero refused to listen and tragically killed his possessed best friend instead of freeing him?"

    This is the entire point of (non-terrible) fanfic, and comic books like to do it too, with alternate universes, new writers, branching retroactive continuity, and all sorts of things.

    Of course, by my particular moral compass, if it were legal to sell fanfic a portion of the proceeds should be required to be given to the original creator. This would, in a way, be more beneficial to the original creators than the current scenario, where fanfic DOES get sold, but only after the numbers have been filed off so it's no longer quite so obvious where the idea came from in the first place.
     
  4. Bui

    Bui New Member

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    This is great discussion.

    To those saying the education is important, yes. It is. But you have to make sure it's not MPAA-style education, e.g. "downloading is terrorism." The biggest problem with demonizing people like that is that most of these parents know their kids probably do it. Their kids are not demons to them. These kids know their friends are not demons. That just makes the people that see it laugh because they know it's not true and completely shut down to any factual information presented.

    The problem with education is that it has to start somewhere. You could run advertising gigs on television, but I imagine those are largely ineffective and expensive. The easiest way to educate people is to simply talk to them - although this can work in reverse if you don't talk to them the right way, as is illustrated by the MPAA's example. Once you inform someone on the issues and they see what you're saying, they will bring those ideas into conversation with other people.

    For example, my mother was recently out of town for a week and wanted me to tape all her season finales. I got two of them on tape just fine, but the other two ran into some problems where I missed parts of the show. So what I did was download these two season finales. I seeded to 1.0 (so at most, I'm liable for distributing one copy of each) and then stopped. I told her to delete the files after she was done with them.

    Mom loved the episodes because they had no commercials and asked how she could do that. I informed her that I had basically broken the law (even though taping the episode is mostly the same as what I did) because it involved the sorcery of computers, and I explained why something that should probably be fair use is not fair use in the digital realm.

    It's my understanding that Hulu allows you to watch stuff without commercials for a fee (could be wrong, I don't know), so I recommended that she check out that service.

    Now when she talks to her friends, she's going to talk about how awesome TV without commercials is and perhaps even how she was able to experience that and why she can't continue to experience it without paying. If you ask me, that's better education than 1,000 MPAA commercials (conservative estimate).
     
  5. mooktown

    Original Member

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    I'm a forum member who agreed with other members that you came down on the new guy heavy handedly. Bui added to the discussion, but because you disagree with his stance you announce that he has derailed the thread in a troll-like manner and should be quietly removed (and shot?). I extended a hand to Bui to let him know your disapproval of him posting was not necessarily the view of the forum as a whole. Again you struggle to play nice with others. :eek:

    That's who I am. Not nearly as grand as who you think you are though, I'm sure. ;)
     
  6. FlySim

    Indie Author

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    I think education about the trojans and viruses contained in many cracks could help the reduce the piracy problem.
    Is it really worth having to reinstall your OS over a $20 game?
    Don't know how to get the word out...
     
  7. GBGames

    Indie Author

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    I disagree. Wouldn't you just be arguing that they should go to trusted illegal sites instead of untrusted ones?

    Bui, I agree that education shouldn't be RIAA/MPAA/BSA style. That is, I don't want to see education about how to consume their products the right way. I want to see copyright explained simply, to the point that people realize that when they do anything that results in a tangible work (blogs, livejournals, videos, etc) that these are copyrighted works. As it stands, copyright really IS too confusing and too scary for the average creator to understand.

    Once people see that copyright isn't just a tool for rich megacorporations with expensive lawyers but is also something an individual can take advantage of, I think they'll have an easier time respecting it.

    See my post on simplifying copyright for the modern world to see my thoughts on Cory Doctorow's idea on how to do just that.
     
  8. GBGames

    Indie Author

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    Papillion challenged it in a succinct way, but I'd like to address the way you handled it. Your argument is valid: how does cloning result in creativity?

    Except no one is arguing that everyone should be allowed to clone. We want to make derivative works on old works. The way Disney did. Disney didn't create the character of Snow White or the hunchback, and while anyone can create their own version of the original public domain works, it's strange that copyright law keeps getting extended so that the same can't be done to Disney's works eventually.

    Slapping your own name on an existing product isn't the goal. But in 20, 30, 40 years? It would be interesting to see what someone else can do with modifying, adapting, or changing Democracy or The Sims without having to worry that they're infringing rights that were meant to be temporary in order for them to be allowed to do so in the first place.

    Also, to turn the question around, how does giving you protection for 100+ years encourage you to create more original works? How does creativity get encouraged when the owner can ride on the success of a single work without worrying about having to create new cash cows?

    It sounds like you're dismissing the idea as merely emotional and coming from whiners who just want things to be fair.

    Frankly, the whole point of the marketplace is to allow opportunities for everyone. Yes, someone with more money might be able to do more, and no one is asking for capability to be made more fair. What they are asking for is potential to be fair.

    The public domain needs to be healthy and revitalized so that new works can be created from it without encumbrance. Star Wars was just another Hero's Journey, which sounds pretty derivative to me. Just because Lucas couldn't use an existing modern work, it doesn't mean he had to create everything from scratch.

    It's a very real concern, and a valid one. To suggest otherwise, that this entire discussion is pointless (as the thread is marked when you search for it for some reason), is sticking your fingers in your ears and hoping that reality will go away.
     
  9. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I'm watching the champions league final and just saw an advert from PC World. No wonder a lot of the public thinks piracy is ok if you're getting adverts with the guy saying "I download loads of movies off the internet".
     
  10. Gary Preston

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    I thought the same thing.

    They'll claim they mean people use iPlayer or youtube, but that's not really how it comes across.

    I think Bui has a good point about fairuse though, I really wish the UK had a fairuse law. Earlier this week the final episode of 24 aired on sky, I've got the full series recorded on my sky box ready to watch, only the box failed to record the last episode due to a loss of signal.

    Fortunatly sky ran the episode on sky2 the following evening, so I've recorded it, but if they hadn't I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have to rent or buy the dvd just to watch an episode that has just aired. Is there a difference (moral that is, not legal) between downloading that episode off of the net vs borrowing it from a friend who did manage to record it, when you've already paid to view that content as part of your subscription.

    That's a specific case that perhaps isn't all that common, but combined with the format shifting laws it's a change I'd really like to see made to uk copyright laws.

    Of course a lot of people are not just downloading an episode or two that they've missed or their box failed to record (i.e those people will not have already paid to watch the episode, as we have with our sky subscription). But it should be possible to rework copyright law to allow fair use and format shifting for personal use whilst still keeping mass downloading of content you haven't paid for illegal.

    The changes I'd like to see though are a far cry from aboloshing copyright law as the pirate party seem to be wanting, which really seems a little ludicrous. I'm sure games/movies and music would still be made even if copyright was abolished, but the quantity of good quality works would fall drastically imo. There may still be the odd jem produced, but I bet those would be few and far between.
     
    #70 Gary Preston, May 27, 2009
    Last edited: May 27, 2009
  11. papillon

    Indie Author

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    ... darnit, I forgot to watch the Apprentice *again* and have to wait a few more hours for it to go up on Iplayer. (Which, for the non-brits, is legal, the BBC streams some content online.)

    I think I've done that five weeks in a row now. :)

    Of course, in that case there's no advertising to begin with.
     
  12. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    There really needs to be a BBC+1.
     
  13. Gary Preston

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    iPlayer is a great service from the BBC, even more so with the addition of HD content :)

    In contrast, sky player is terrible. Miss an episode, fire up sky player and you're asked to hand over more money to "rent" the episode. Now I could understand charging people who don't have a subscription or charging for archived content over X weeks old, but they really need to add a catch up service along the lines of iPlayer. (ok, they don't need to, but I'd like to see them do so :D)

    I'm still hopeful we'll get a on demand service in the uk though with a real back catalogue rather than just 7 day catchup. A spotify for movies, tv series and documentaries :)
     
  14. cliffski

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    Tomorrow night, 7PM BBC 2 :D

    I can't believe they tried to sell that cat thing...
     
  15. Dave TZ

    Dave TZ New Member

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    Not really. I might have phrased it a bit along those lines, but that was mainly to create a bit of contrast for the paragraph where I said I agree with the sentiment. :D (I probably should have edited it a bit more.)

    My point is that I feel that most people's opinion on copyright does seem to me to be based on a emotional level of what is "fair", with logical reasoning applied later to justify it. The debate is more about people's hearts than their minds.

    My biggest problem I have with the "Mickey Mouse" copyright extensions is that it smacks of a big company having their cake (public domain fairy stories) and wanting to eat it too (by ensuring their stuff doesn't become public domain). This manifestly fails the "fairness" test. Then by extending copyright, it tars the whole concept by extension. It becomes easier to see copyright as a whole as "unfair".

    Oh, and I think it was missing an old series of Apprentice that caused me to completely wean off television a few years back. I was taping shows on my VCR as I tended to be out or busy when the show was on, but the station decided to change the day of the week the show was on without warning. I didn't watch enough TV to catch any of the ads, so I stopped watching altogether. It was amazing how much I needed the ads for other television shows to drum up the excitement to watch them. :)
     
  16. Allen Varney

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    A point of information and discussion: Prolific Swedish novelist and scholar Lars Gustafsson, writing in the Swedish newspaper Expressen for May 27, 2009, has announced he will vote for the Pirate Party in the upcoming elections for the European Parliament. The Pirate Party site Copyriot posted an English translation of Gustafsson's opinion piece. (As I write, the Copyriot site appears to be running very slow.)
    Michael Masnick at Techdirt links to the Gustafsson translation, saying, "The idea that things like The Pirate Bay needs to be stopped or there won't be incentives to create is pretty much disproved right here." Commenters disagree.
     
  17. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    oh jesus.
    Another novelist (translation: someone who works on their own and has zero employees) tries to extrapolate from novel writing to the games, software, music and movie industry.

    I look forward to the next blockbuster star trek movie, or lord of the rings style epic made by people at the weekends while they hold down their jobs as plumbers.
    Or rather... I don't, because such a thing will never happen.

    If you want to see the future of 'everything should be free' media, chek out the amateur videos on youtube.
    I don't see 'kitten falling asleep on my sofa! lol!' beating Star Wars out of the top 100 movies of all time...

    edit:just seen that this drivel is sourced from torrentfreak. That site is practically kindergarten as far as intelligent debate on copyright goes. Its just a pro-piracy rant from kiddies who think that everyone should let them take their work for free. In any sane world, torrentfreak would be considered a joke site. The fact that people consider it impartial is farcical.
     
  18. Gary Preston

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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8022623.stm

    For a fan-film on a budget, it doesn't look all that bad. Granted I've only seen the trailer, your guess is as good as mine as to how the final film will be. And yes, it's one film out of a whole sea of much poorer quality fan-films (some are truely terrible, others are enjoyable to watch but still not a match for industry produced movies)

    How many here would be making games in their spare time IF you didn't already work in the game industry? I'm sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't dream of working on a game if it wasn't their job, but equally I'm sure there are people who would still make games and quite a few of those will be very skilled at doing so.

    In which case there could still be quality games produced on shoe string budgets that are more a labour of love than produced for commercial gain. Chances are there'd be a lower quantity of such games though.

    I'm not sure we'd see the end to commercially developed games even if (and I doubt it'd ever happen) copyright was abolished or piracy reached 100% levels. A lot of studios would certainly close their doors, but I'm sure some would find alternative revenue models and continue to thrive.

    All that said, I still think the idea of abolishing copyright is crazy. People deserve the option of been rewarded for their creativity (or the option to place it in the public domain), I consider that more of a freedom than forcing everything into the pd.

    edit: Looks like it's already been released http://www.thehuntforgollum.com/player_film-hd.htm
     
    #78 Gary Preston, May 28, 2009
    Last edited: May 28, 2009
  19. papillon

    Indie Author

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    There's a couple of Star Trek fanfilms that use a bunch of the original actors, too. Amateur-made stuff varies wildly in quality. Isn't that the point? Make stuff! :)
     
  20. Dave TZ

    Dave TZ New Member

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    I probably would still be working on games in my free time as a hobby. However, I'd have less incentive to polish them up to a high level of standard, and virtually no incentive to provide good documentation or support.

    Furthermore, a lot of the experience I have comes from learning from professionals in the industry. It's their techniques that trickle down into the amateur sphere. They're the ones who write the books and post the lion share of the informative articles.

    And the biggest change would be that, without the existence of a vibrant software industry with suitable careers, I almost certainly would not have taken my software engineering degree. The software industry would be just business administrative tasks, and professional game development would be just a subset of the marketing department. I'd have aimed my goals somewhere else.

    Without the professional industry's knowledge, skills and potential career incentives, the quality and quantity of the amateur industry will suffer too in the long run.
     

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