Pro-internet piracy party on course for EU seats

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by chrisroyale, May 22, 2009.

  1. papillon

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    I *am* upset at the larger companies, but me whining about them on this particular forum wouldn't accomplish anything. :)

    Thus, my attempt to point out to our new friend that e's barking up the wrong tree. If you want to yell at big companies, yell elsewhere. If you want to convince us that we're on the same side, tailor your arguments to the fact that we are NOT big companies.

    Last I looked at it, the pirate party's platform did not take small producers into account in the slightest. They talked about how products are only really sold in the first years they come out and nobody makes money back after that first big sales push. Mostly true for big companies. Not so true for people working on tiny budgets and surviving off small-but-steady sales over long periods of time!

    So if some of them want to come here and talk about their issues, great! Please listen to us while you're doing it. :)
     
  2. vjvj

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    Very well said, GBGames.

    But like papillon said (which is the same thing I was trying to say, only he said it better), the smaller producers (i.e. us) are not being factored into most of these discussions, and as far as I can tell are not being factored into any of the greater political battle taking place.

    In other words, yes the ridiculous restrictions in place on older works like Disney's is a problem, but that doesn't make rampant copyright infringement any less of a problem for IP that SHOULD still be protected under copyright law.

    Like I said before, in the battle between teh evil corps and the copyright law reformists, we are the ones taking casualties. Unfortunately, it seems that this is seen as a much smaller and lower priority problem.
     
  3. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    "But like papillon said (which is the same thing I was trying to say, only he said it better), the smaller producers (i.e. us) are not being factored into most of these discussions, and as far as I can tell are not being factored into any of the greater political battle taking place."

    you mean she, not he
     
  4. GBGames

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    Part of the problem could be that the ones taking the casualties are either siding with the large companies or doing nothing. I don't see why complaining about it on this forum wouldn't be the most appropriate place to do so. At the very least, voice your concerns, even if the only other people who might hear you are other indies! Why wouldn't you want to let other indie developers know about the problems with letting the BSA represent us?
     
  5. BrutoMemo

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    Papilllon, "butterfly" in french, is he, not she :)
     
  6. Aldacron

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    What is missing on both sides is a grassroots effort to restore copyright law to something more sensible. Something that actually serves its original intent in promoting creative works, rather than granting monopolies to corporations.

    The anti-copyright crowd have it wrong in wanting to abolish copyright altogether. The anti-piracy crowd have it wrong in ignoring copyright law reformation. You can bet that as soon as Disney's current copyrights start nearing expiration they will be back to lobbying Congress again and we'll get the next version of the Mickey Mouse Law, no matter what how widespread piracy becomes or what happens to indies.
     
  7. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    yes but the person is a she

    anyway, i think giving the pirate party a few seats in the parliament of the eu would be humorous. it's not like they can get anything done there.
     
  8. Mattias Gustavsson

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    You don't change laws by breaking them - if you do, you're just a criminal.

    You don't change laws by encouraging others to break them either - that still makes you a criminal.

    Calling yourself "the pirate party", is a way of encouraging others to break laws - regardless of what your actual agenda is.

    On a side note, I think we need to clamp down on these people who just register to post things that are only going to upset the forum and cause a stir. It's not helpful in any way, and it just derails threads like this. We need less drama, and more of the useful stuff. There must be better soapboxes for people like Bui to make their rants. I think that if you want to come on strong like Bui, you need to have been participating in general on this forum first - otherwise, you're just a troll and your posts should just be silently removed... IMO
     
  9. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    to play devil's advocate, weren't laws against segregation in the US changed only after people started breaking them en masse? rosa parks and all that.
     
  10. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Ah. but those were bad laws. :)
     
  11. cliffski

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    yes I do. Like i said, I've read both Das Kapital and The communist party manifesto as a kid. I also know a bit about economic systems. I was top of my school in economics, got an A in my economics A level, then studied a degree in economics at the London school of economics.
    I also make the most complex political simulation game ever made.

    I know a bit about this topic.

    nice first post though. Welcome to indiegamer
     
  12. papillon

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    You change laws by breaking them if you know that the law is wrong and it's important enough to you that you are WILLING to suffer the consequences in order to make your point. Protestors know they're taking a risk. They're making a statement and making it public. They want people to see them.

    Breaking the law because you hope you can get away with it isn't really the same thing. :)
     
  13. cliffski

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    YES.

    And as someone who has taken part in political protest and is definitely guilty of aggravated trespass and breaking-and-entering, and even anti-terror legilsation (although I was never charged), let me state the difference:

    When you are trying to change an unjust law, you knowingly and clearly and openly break that law, and when challenged, you are happy to stand up and say "my name is Cliff Harris and I broke this law because I strongly feel that the law must be changed. And if you want to prosecute me for breaking this unjust law, here I am".

    And yet strangely the pro-piracy crowd talk less about that, and more about how to use anonymous proxies to 'not get caught'.

    Big difference.

    If TPB gave a toss about reforming copyright to shorter terms, they would take down all torrents of material less than a year old. Do they? Do they bollocks.

    And I see it as no great loss that I can't reuse steamboat willy. If George Lucas had been able to use the Flash Gordon IP, he would have, and we would not have Star Wars. What is so great about living in a world where everyone just re-hashes old ideas?


    edit: bah, papillon beat me!
     
  14. Escapee

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    This pro-privacy group has gone too far, what they are doing is akin to Somali government legalizing sea privacy. I have no issue with political party trying to fight for better workers' right, they act as a balancing force for the potential side effects of (greed)capitalism but the free for all approach is way too extreme and counterproductive.

    Honestly, if they don't back down we will probably see :rolleyes:

    THE GREAT ENTERTAINMENT FAMINE

    :rolleyes:
     
    #34 Escapee, May 26, 2009
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  15. Gary Preston

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    I feel that current copyright laws are in need of change, they're out of date. The issue of format shifting been one such law that pretty much everyone is breaking when they rip cds to MP3 or DVDs to divx/xvid to play back on a media server, yet is still illegal in the UK. An issue that Real is currently fighting in court in the US too with their software that allows you to transfer your DVDs to a PC media server.

    I also agree that in many cases copyright duration is too long and needs reform. However, I cannot accept the arguement that the pirate party is somehow fighting for these issues by allowing all works to be distributed freely.

    I'd have sympathy with their cause if they distributed works over 20 years old (or some other figure that can be argued as a reasonable duration for the copyright holder to profit). But allowing new release and in numerous cases pre-release material to be distributed doesn't support that stance.

    To be fair to Bui, although I may not agree with all his points, he's not just rehashing the same old excuses people use for piracy and his post is actually stimulating a reasonable discussion about copyright (which makes a change for a piracy thread).
     
  16. Alistair Hutton

    Alistair Hutton New Member

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    People are surprisingly uniformed about the neo-nazi bankrolling the Pirate Bay. It doesn't fit the "Woo, freedom" narrative that the 'blog-o-sphere' has built up around it.
     
  17. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    I really dont see how can one say that no-copyright would stimulate the growth of stories related to that copyrighted stuff. Peter Pan is now public Domain in Europe and I havent seen a flood of new Peter Pan stuff (only a direct sequel in 2007).
    Also in a no copyright scenario: "halo launch". Halo would launch and have a great success then every company would launch a halo themed game and we would be lost in a see of crappy stuff.

    Perhaps a 5 year restriction AFTER the last launch of the last sequel to the original IP would help make stuff public domain and/or push the companies into creating more content for their IP.

    I dont have a problem with people fighting for a good cause, I just dont like people fighting big companies because they want stuff for free.
     
  18. Bui

    Bui New Member

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    Kinda wish this forum had spoilers, the post I've made is bit on the large side.

    Thank you for the greeting. I should've phrased my statement a bit differently. Reading over it again, it probably sounds like antagonism, which isn't what I wanted to go for. Also, where might I learn more about your political simulation game? That sounds awesome.

    To be fair, that's easy to tell in hindsight. But the laws made a lot of sense to the people of the time.

    Ah, I actually don't agree with the way The Pirate Bay is handling things. There are much better ways to achieve a sensible outcome. There's very little justification to be had in infringing the copyright of modern works. They aren't really the ones breaking the law, though, so that issue is a bit complicated.

    It's obvious what they stand for (being "The Pirate Bay"), but the website is an index of indexes of where to find content. It's like using Google to search for filetype:torrent or whatever. The only thing they're really doing wrong is not complying with takedown requests, and even that has shaky legal status considering the aspect of what jurisdiction they fall under.

    It's a very complicated issue, and labeling it "piracy" (a form of theft, requires that physical property be removed from its owner) really doesn't do it justice. I do love stimulating discussion, so I'm glad that you see my post as encouraging that. :)

    I find your opinion interesting. Actually, I've been perusing the forum for about a week, this thread is what got me off my ass to register. Now that I have, I do intend to contribute where I can and will probably do so more and more as I learn about the trade. It kinda bothered me that I saw a bunch of comments like "f'n commies" when it's really not that simple.

    My intent is not to upset people, but make sure that everyone has as much knowledge as possible to make an informed decision. When everyone has more knowledge, they bring this knowledge into discussions with their friends and family. Then more people have this knowledge, you see. It's sort of a microscopic approach to affecting the macroscopic issue. If you think I'm only discussing it here, you're a bit mistaken. ;)

    I apologize if you feel that I'm trolling and I can see where you're coming from, so it doesn't really bother me. I admit that my style is a bit.. loud and brutal at times. But then again, I don't recall the last time that "quiet" changed anything. And honestly, that 48-hour waiting period should be sufficient enough to ward off trolls. I think if nothing else I've said convinces you, the fact that I waited that long to post my thoughts should.

    I am listening. A lot of the earlier discussion was swallowed by "f'n commies," as I mentioned in .. some other subsection of this huge post. I understand that this does affect everyone - big or small - but when two huge forces butt heads, very few people pay attention to the small guy. The two huge forces in this case being citizens v. monolithic corporations.

    As I also mentioned, my purpose isn't to convert your views. It's to inform. Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me if you agree with me or not, what matters is that we learn from one another (and not insult those that have opposing viewpoints), and I thought I had something that I could teach compared with what was happening in the topic prior to my posting.

    There's no such thing as a wrong place to learn. :D

    Whew. That has to be the biggest post I've made in a very long time. I'd have to agree that this is stimulating discussion.
     
  19. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    i'm impressed by that second post, the first one felt antagonistic but this one is great. not that i agree with the position, i just prefer when people talk sensibly.

    anyway, my personal position on copyright infringement is a bit nuanced (each side will think i'm arguing for the other side when i'm not -- this is neither pro- nor anti- piracy). my position is that it if you're going to have a law you can't regulate, it's a bad law, even if the intention is good.

    as an analogy, drug laws are also very hard to regulate. the war on drugs does more harm than good, even though the intention was good.

    on the one hand i still think people who pirate (or "copyright infringe" or whatever the verb is) are acting selfish and greedy and doing harm to the people they are getting enjoyment from, and tend to make up a million excuses about how pirating actually helps the people they pirate from, but on the other hand i don't think it's practical to throw most of the internet in jail. it's a very hard crime to detect or prosecute.

    i think piracy just shows that humans generally are irrational, they're so short-term in thinking that a majority of them do things which are destructive to the things they enjoy. and then rationalize it with systems of belief that make themselves feel like revolutionists instead of more akin to cowards. i'm not even excluding myself from this; i too am short-term and irrational in most of my decisions, and tend to rationalize things, just like everyone else. like with drugs, i believe the solution isn't criminalization, it's education and enlightenment.

    a lot of the people who have pirated my game or wanted to do so eventually decided against it after getting to know me and realizing it's a jerk thing to do. someone once told me that the fact that i'm so visible on forums and on livejournal and on blogs and such, and so in-touch and friendly with fans discourages their inclination to pirate. through greater understanding, problems can be solved, rather than through force.
     
    #39 RinkuHero, May 26, 2009
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  20. papillon

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    Don't know about you, but *I'm* personally extremely wary of going near things that are out of copyright in only part of the world. The laws confuse me. If I make something with Peter Pan and then someone from the US sees it, am I in trouble? I don't know how it works, I don't want to deal with it.

    ... This already happens to an extent, they just don't call them all Halo. :)

    I'm certainly a fan of WAY more limited times of control, though, as well as making official provisions for 'abandoned' content. I'd favor something more along the lines of (as I understand it) compulsory licensing. So that, after the brief time period of exclusivity, if you want to write a book featuring someone else's characters, you can - and a specified portion of any profits made from it MUST be sent to the original author. This allows people to build on each other's ideas and still allow the 'inventor' to profit if they have an idea that was great but they just failed to get it to the right audience.
     

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