Pirate/Hackers not such a problem?

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by jcottier, May 21, 2008.

  1. jcottier

    jcottier New Member

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    "Pirate's celebrate as Swedish-run bittorrent site breaks into Alexa’s top 100 global websites"

    http://www.pcretailmag.com/news/29892/The-Pirate-Bay-breaches-top-100

    Well, this kind of news really shows that bittorrent is far from being just used by a little group of people. If a site enter the top 100 visited website, surely, this means it is a massively mainstream site.

    Yes, pirates have always been a problem for the industry, but never at this scale.

    JC
     
  2. Mattias Gustavsson

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    pirate bay makes me feel ashamed of being swedish :mad:
     
  3. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

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    Indeed, you should! :D
    joking, but what is crazy is that the sweden government is doing basically nothing. Would be enough an anti-piracy law.

    We have that even in country with many problems like Italy... :rolleyes:
     
  4. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    This was probably in response to all the naieve activity targetted at removing them from the picture, as I predicted a while ago.

    Of course people are going to rip stuff off. And where there is demand, there'll be supply. Us guys on here are about as removed from the average demographic in this regard as it's possible to be. Everyone else (and his dog) are downloading games, porn, music and DVD's and they really don't care a toss. They don't need educating, they know it's wrong already.

    Trying to stop piracy happening is basically trying to stop basic human behaviour. Ask the Americans what happened in the 20's, or how many more accidents are caused in the UK now by people driving one handed whilst attempting to hide their cigarettes beneath the dashboard!

    You have a few options. Be totally stressed about it all the time, or target other markets where it's not so bad, or make something so popular that you get enough legit sales. Any other option is hot air and denial.

    Because it's totally unenforcable. Absolutely and utterly. And I would applaud that. I don't want our coppers stopping catching murderers so they can reduce the number of different options for downloading a game from 1,000,000 down to 999,999
     
  5. brun

    brun New Member

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    This is amusing (in a bad way), so much for those claiming that people who pirate games are a small minoriy with deep knowledge about computers.

    And like applewood said, getting stressed about it or trying to stop pirates is a pointless endeavor. I think the only way to overcome this problem is finding new ways to monetize your game, maybe use a different way to sell it, online activation, ads, etc. in the end it's your product and choice.
     
    #5 brun, May 21, 2008
    Last edited: May 21, 2008
  6. Teeth

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    who ever said this?
     
  7. jcottier

    jcottier New Member

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    This is exactly what I was trying to say...

    Applewood, I am spending 100% of my time on my business and not doing really much about piracy, so in some ways I kind of follow the same path as you.

    But, I think a lot can be done (not by us) but at europeen level (for example, or whatever big government stuff you live in). I think it would be good if internet provider are forced to ban illegal/bad website. It would take almost no work... And with just few 1000's website ban, it will propably stop 99% of the piracy. But obviously, this is bad for the internet freedom, but there is no other solution. It would cost nothing compares to the billions that are lost with digital piracy. I am sure, Music/Game/Film industry will be glad to even pay to support the expense of such a system.

    Now, if you think it is not feasible, you should know that a lot is done in France to start stopping piracy or helping the music industry. But what is done is utterly crap... Massively taxing storage stuff (HD/USB KEY/BLANK CD and DVD) also, they are going to warn user if they detect that they download illegal stuff, after few warnings they will shut-down you internet connection. I think this is stupid and a little bit too much. I would rather not have acces to bittorrent site, rapidshares and other stuff than these stupid rules.

    JC
     
  8. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    But there's nothing illegal about thepiratebay, like it or not. I know what you mean, but this isn't enough - it needs to be actually against the law to be enforced by police. It would take new legislation to making hosting torrents illegal, and then the offenders would just make them borrents or dorrents instead.

    Then, if that's not enough. However we might go about this in the west, there'll be some dodgy eastern european site, or maybe afghanistan.borrent.com to visit instead. And please lets not make a plea for this level of cooperation worldwide - we can't even stop bombing each other's civilians.

    Accept it as fact of life and move on. Cue cliffy.... :)
     
  9. HDL

    HDL New Member

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    I disagree that people already know that it's wrong. I think part of the problem with piracy is that people just don't see the wrong in it. It's seen as a victimless crime for those who see it as a crime at all. People who wouldn't dream of shoplifting, who otherwise consider themselves moral, law-abiding citizens download illegal mp3s, games and dvds because they don't see it as wrong.

    With music this is an easy one. Everyone knows that rockstars have millions which they squander away, that record companies have billions and everyone in the music industry is ridiculously rich. When you're not ridiculously rich, when £15 for a cd is a large sum of money it's far easier to just download the cd illegally than it is to do without in order to give those who already seem to have it all. After all it's not as if you'd have bought it anyway so it's not as if they're actually losing out. Of course it's not that simple.

    Most people don't even consider that anyone could be hurt by piracy. They're just downloading games that they never intended to purchase anyway. No one loses out. The makers of those games must be like the music industry, ridiculously rich companies that see record profits year in, year out, everyone being on fat-cat salaries. They don't know what the reality is and so they don't see it as wrong. Maybe they wouldn't care even if they did know. Maybe some would if they found out they weren't stealing from faceless corporations.

    I don't pirate games. I don't download illegal music. I used to. I didn't really understand why it was wrong. It was there right below littering. I understand it now. There's a whole bunch of people out there who don't.
     
  10. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Aw come on! I think you have far more faith in the human condition than is warranted.

    You really think that someone who spends all day downloading MP3's doesn't know he shouldn't be doing it ? Would actually stop if you said he was directly hurting the musicians ?

    No chance.
     
  11. papillon

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    Most people wouldn't believe you if you told them they were directly hurting the musicians, and might even be offended by your statement and consider that it means you're untrustworthy.

    The general internet culture had a good laugh at Metallica's anti-napster stance, and roundly mocked the "If you're downloading MP3s, you're downloading COMMUNISM/ORGANISED CRIME/TERRORISM" attempts at panic. Because they knew (whether factual or not, but 'knew' deeply and without question) that Metallica had plenty of money, far more than they the individual downloading MP3s did or ever would, and that Metallica would not be put out of commission by the downloads.

    The negative approach just plain isn't working. People don't listen, and they feel unjustly persecuted if you harass them, because of what they believe so strongly to be true.

    When they see actual companies fold and realise that producers are not necessarily incredibly rich, they are slightly more likely to switch over from the failed negative viewpoint ("I shouldn't download stuff without paying because it's wrong") to the more useful positive viewpoint ("I should pay for things so that companies will survive"). IMO.
     
  12. cliffski

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    I don't see why the big media companies don't give $100,000 in used notes to some hit men, and have them just go stick a bullet through the heads of the people who run the pirate bay.

    And don't think it won't have been discussed. people have been found floating in a lake for a LOT less economic damage than those guys have caused.
    There are hundreds of thousands of people in the US alone working in the media industry, all seeing their entire workload redistributed for free by a handful of swedes. Don't we think at least SOME of them are unscrupulous enough to pay some money to make an example of them. Some certainly have the cash.

    of course I would never condone that. No. Not me. not at all. Not one bit.

    People who run torrent sites are the lowest of the low. They do their best to wipe out entire creative industries, whilst profiting from the work of everyone else. Its flipping disgusting, and no way to live. Its tragic that some retards consider them 'heroes'.

    Cue some idiot waffling about human rights and freedom and other silliness...
     
  13. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Nah, I'm with you (for once on this issue), Cliff. I'd dearly love to see these people with their tongues hanging out their necks.

    But do you have another 100 grand for the guys who start up another site the next day ?

    THAT is my core belief of the real problem.
     
  14. Teeth

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    yep cliff, your games are worth more than human life itself.

    (good enough?)
     
  15. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Any form of parasite should be eradicated for the sake of the host.

    I must admit I never thought about this method of prevention before Cliffy mooted it. I'm a convert. I'll put in enough to buy the bullets... :) (yes, I'm being serious)
     
  16. AlexWeldon

    AlexWeldon New Member

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    Extreme opinions are almost always extremely ridiculous. Cliffski's post is kind of ridiculous, as are the people who laud large-scale pirates as heroes. The more moderate people on both sides of the argument have some valid points.

    It's true that the record industry gouges the artists, that they're as evil as any pirate, and that music piracy hurts them more than it does the artists, who make a lot of their money from touring anyway. That doesn't make it right, any more than shooting the operators of Pirate Bay would be right... but it does make it somewhat less wrong, in my opinion.

    If that's your rationale, however, it's extremely hypocritical to pirate the works of indies. The whole point was to "stick it to the man," right? Well, the indies are also trying to stick it to the man, and provide an alternative to AAA games from software giants. And whereas a big company can absorb the losses from piracy, a small company is more likely to be driven out of business if piracy cuts too deeply into its sales.

    Another devil's advocate-style argument, though. One good thing that does come from piracy is forcing the industry to adapt. If it weren't for music piracy, we'd probably still be stuck buying CDs, instead of having services like iTunes which are, IMO, a big improvement. Likewise, software piracy may eventually force the industry to shift to a better model. The trouble is that for the time being, the efforts being made are mostly in the direction of preventing piracy, which is a futile struggle, and one that just ends up annoying legitimate consumers. What is needed is a paradigm shift, towards subscription-based services (which we see already with the MMOs) and micro-payments (e.g. episode based formats like the new Sam & Max, or what I'm thinking of doing with my first game, if it achieves any sort of popularity - free or maybe even open source game, first level set free, pay a small fee for each additional level set, released at semi-regular intervals).

    The advantage that indies have in that regard is that small companies are always able to change faster than big ones. Maybe instead of churning out endless match-threes and hidden-image games, we need to be working on better business models that are more convenient and flexible for the consumer, and circumvent the piracy issue entirely... because as has been said earlier in the thread, even if someone did shoot the Pirate Bay guys and dump them in a lake, we'd just be cutting down the number of piracy options from 1,000,000 to 999,999.
     
  17. cliffski

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    who would still run a torrent site, knowing that the most famous torrent site owners are now floating in the river with their throats cut?

    You?

    Your mates?

    I know I wouldn't.
    99% of torrent sites are run by people who would immediately give it up if they thought there was a chance of a serious life-savings destroying fine being handed out. The fear of actually being killed would be even more powerful.

    I don't actually advocate them being killed, that's mad. but if everyone associated with TPB was in prison for 10 years and had everything they own confiscated, how keen do you think people would be to set up another site?

    People pirate because they think they won't get caught. More people need to get caught, very publicly, and fined, a LOT.
     
  18. cliffski

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    You really care about a bunch of arrogant swedish thieves? I surely don't.
    Fuck em.
     
  19. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

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    Trust me, if piratebay goes down, LOT of people wouldn't know where to get their warez stuff. The alexa thing says all.
    You don't need cops. You need simply a lawyer sending a threatening letter to the PB owner (unless they're a super-secret entity like Matrix, but doubt this) and you'll see them going poff immediately.
    They play arrogant vs Microsoft, Dreamwork etc because they feel "safe" in their Sweden citadel. But what if the swedish guards themselves go against them? the site would be down in less than 1s.

    Sure, more would come. But they'll have FEAR. Something that is never good to live with, trust me :cool:
     
  20. Teeth

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    no, just making light of your comments. i really don't care about these pirate guys either way, it's just really funny that people like you get so worked up about it that you're literally willing to kill them for it. funny perspectives are funny.

    i've said in the past how i think you're wasting your time removing bit torrents from trackers and having hernias over piracy. it's time and emotion that's better channeled into making more stuff imo.
     

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