Optimization for free

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by princec, Jan 30, 2006.

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  1. Fabio

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    WYSIWYG? My God.. While I like some of my editors to be WYSIWYG (e.g. level editors), how this could be relevant in any way? Do you measure productivity by WYSIWYGness?
    And, as luggage rightly says, why do you think that code made specifically for multimedia is any different than a set of modules that cover multimedia and many other stuff as well? Why don't you think that Torque2D (or any other game library), once disassembled in modules (assuming it was modular in the first place), wouldn't lose that special multimedia "status" that you seem to think gets added magically only to some products?
    I have modules that generate audio, others that apply DSP effects on it (BTW: many years ago I wrote this tutorial if you're interested). I have modules that blit (and much more) on 2D surfaces, as well as I have modules that link to OpenGL32.DLL or to D3D8.DLL. I have hierarchies of modules for Physics (simulations); for AI (only a kind of associative database for now); for code generation (for my own assembler and compiler, but also for things like this); for data types conversion and manipulation; a filesystem; modules for memory allocation (either global or inside a heap object, to control fragmentation); for SIMD-like memory operations; everything that is system-specific is separed from the rest and is encapsulated in the Host/ hierarchy; I got networking (serial and Internet/Ethernet) modules; modules for handling all aspects of Text processing; for inter-process/thread communications; and for most other aspects of programming, not just games. If you add expecially the former two (audio and video) together then you get a multimedia engine. For me nowadays developing an application is mostly linking together the needed modules, and writing some glue code.
    What makes a specifically designed library like PTK or Torque2D more multimedia than my work? I'd really like to know..
    And why should I dump everything for Bill's C# and .NET? Or for Java? Note again that it's not me despising who uses them, I'm only reacting to those that want to enforce them down to my throat.
     
  2. Vorax

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    Here's the summary of all this as I see it (less the banter and posturing ;)):

    - If you have API's that work for the type of games your producing and you are happy with your productivity in C++ then keep using them.

    - If you have no API's then consider all your options before selecting a language. Modern managed languages can give you big benefits, don't discount anything simply because it's not the "normal" choice.

    - If you are unhappy with your productivity there are options out there.


    Simple :D
     
  3. Fabio

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    Vorax, how could one disagree? You're being unfair. :D
     
  4. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    And Vorax sums up a huuuge thread in one tiny post. hurrah!
     
  5. Savant

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    Looking at the list of modules you posted I have to say, you certainly do enjoy programming.

    Me? I enjoy getting my projects done.
     
  6. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    How many games have you finished Savant?
     
  7. DangerCode

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    No need to be nasty, guys.
     
  8. Fabio

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    The number of retail games I have on my desk made by me (which are even almost one-man projects), and the number you have are certainly enlightning, but I'm convinced that alone don't demostrate anything anyway, so I better don't go that low just to meet you. And, just to make you happy, they weren't clones.

    Rather, I should say that I enjoy programming and business when what you seem to enjoy is only bashing to cloners and to other ppl as well that doesn't fit your vision of the world (which, sadly, is a world ruled by Microsoft (tm)).
     
  9. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    It's a genuine question. I presume it's more than zero otherwise comments aimed at posters like "I prefer to finish projects" don't really hold up.
     
  10. Savant

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    I'm just stoking the fire on a boring Friday afternoon now, guys, sorry. Ignore me.
     
  11. Fabio

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    None of the comments I've ever read made by Savant really hold up anyway. You should see his blog. I haven't, though: what I read on the board is more than enough for me.
     
  12. Savant

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    I'll get my engine done and then I'll show you meddling kids!
     
  13. Fabio

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    No, really, you definitely accomplished bashing on cloners, on your blog.

    Your main site instead, more genuinely, promotes "1 good game" at a time. Yes, I finally browsed it. Quoting directly from your site:

    Well, the currently featured game is Hamsterball. What do you, Savant, have to say about it to justify that it's so good?

    MY GOD! A CLONE OF MARBLE MADNESS!!

    Now, that's what I call coherency.

    That's an example of why I think your comments, being them technical or about business, totally lack authoritativeness.

    PS: I just saw you edited your post.. from a depressive "I've never accomplished a single thing. Ever. I'm irrelevant. Ignore me." to an anxious "I'll get my engine done and then I'll show you meddling kids!". Cool, what a switch. ;)

    Well, see you when you've finished then. I'm currently working at the same time at 2 games and a complex software for a clinic (where I was previously employed, till ~3 months ago, when I decided to go Indie). Maybe I finish all of 3 before you anyway, even if it's all C++ crap. :eek:
     
  14. HairyTroll

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    Here's where your Lisp/Scheme/Smalltalk/Python/Ruby developers get their knickers in a knot. This stuff is not 'new'. It is new only to those developers that think that C/C++/Java/VB/C# are the only languages worth learning.

    OO, code as data, generics, aspect orientated programming, blazing fast garbage collectors, being able to hot-swap code into a running system.... these have all been around for more than 30 years. In Lisp's case it's probably closer to 40 years. This stuff is not *new*... it's freaking *ancient* technology. It's been around for longer than most people in this forum have been alive.
     
  15. Savant

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    Fabio

    Yes, alright, your internet penis is HUGE. Bigger than my imagination could possibly fathom. Bigger than mine could ever be, even if I used a mirror from one of those fun houses. Just ENORMOUS.

    Are we done now?
     
  16. oNyx

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    A profiler tells you which parts of your program actually take the most time. You certainly know that saying that 10% of the program are run 90% of the time. With a profiler you can identify those parts and if you take care about em you'll actually make the program faster.

    Blindly optimising is a waste of time and usually doesnt even yield a single additional frame per second. This time is better spend on those bits which would make a difference.

    Every game is different and a strategy which worked well in one title can be pretty bad for the next one - even if the genre is the same. With a profiler you can see where it would be worthwhile to try a different approach. And you can also verify if it helped and how much it helped.

    ---

    "The biggest problem is that Java is really slow."

    He means J2ME and yes he's right... J2ME is slow, because its interpreted (J2ME!=Java). Pay more attention next time. Thanks.

    ---

    "You get memory leaks anyway (forgetting to set a reference to NULL)."

    Haha. Read the answers next time, Fabio.

    ---

    I agree with Vorax's post.

    ---

    "Are we done now?"

    Hope so.
     
  17. Vorax

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    I would consider Python and Ruby to be fairly new - but I get where your comming from - many of the things that make Java or C# deseriable are not new. I should have left of the "Modern" in "Modern managed"
     
  18. Fabio

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    Whatever is more convenient for you. When you like to bother with your nonsense, let's talk endlessly. When it stops being convenient for you, let's stop. Fine with me anyway, don't worry. But, please, my internet penis is none of your business. Bonjour finesse.
     
  19. HairyTroll

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    Douglas Adams said it best.

     
  20. electronicStar

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    The only reason we are so happy of Java is mainly the comfort of use. It's a subtle thing and difficult to explain, but when you use Java you don't have to worry about finding the correct library to use, update your code or your framework for every OS or every iteration of windows, and the fact that it is high level and do most of the dirty work for you (no messing with pointers or garbage cleaning). Learning windows coding isn't really free (financially or in time invested) and I'd have to start all over again as soon as the next OS will be released.
    But it's really difficult to give an argumented justification, just try it for yourself and you'll understand :)
    I'm personally not a JAVA fanatic, I'd gladly abandon JAVA if I could find a language easier to deploy with the same comfort of use. I've tried everything from python to blitz basic to C++ but nothing retained my interest, except blitz3D for a limited time, that is until I become comfortable enough to impose JAVA in my business.
     
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