Optimization for free

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by princec, Jan 30, 2006.

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  1. Savant

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    What did you expect to gain? Nobody ever changes their minds in these discussions. They circle the wagons and defend their point of view to the death. It's the internet way.
     
  2. Nikster

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    How's that out of context exactly ? Unless you're suggesting that's what other people are trying to get at and it's not your personal opinion, and that was not how it read. If so, my apologies, it not, it's bizzare :)
     
  3. luggage

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    You can ONLY assume you know nothing about the guy's modules. Jesus - you haven't finished a single game yet you're dictating to someone who's got years of retail experience about their own code?

    They're most efficient for him.
     
  4. luggage

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    A nice little bullet pointed list of reasons to switch from a stable, comfortable, efficient, working source code to a brand new language? You said you had "loads" of reasons.
     
  5. DangerCode

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    To be honest, I don't think adding 3mb (or even 2.5mb) to my download size is 'tiny', but of course your milage will vary.
     
  6. princec

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    Again, Carmack though famous and successful and talented doesn't really know what he's talking about (eg. array bounds access checking). Or rather he does, but you've mistaken it for Java on the desktop. Carmack is talking about particular implementations of J2ME on phones. In a tragedy of marketing incompetence Sun have rather blurred the message on that one.

    Cas :)
     
  7. luggage

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    I did realise he meant on the mobile phones or rather "resource-constrained" platforms. We work on resource constrained platforms as well as the PC so Java wouldn't be the wisest of choices.
     
  8. soniCron

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    Unwilling to try the alternatives, he wouldn't rightly know that, now would he?
     
  9. DangerCode

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    My experiece is with C#, not Java, but there are several compelling reasons for switching to a managed language. Proper interface support and reflection are amoung my favorite features.

    You mention garbage collection, but I actually think that's one of the compelling reasons to use C++ in applications like video games. I find it important to manage my own memory usage and to be in control of exactly when objects are deleted. I'm not interested in taking an application that should only take up 8MB of system resources and ballooning it out to 100MB because "I should no longer care" about allocations.

    There are ways around the default GC behaviors in C# (and if Java too, I'm sure) but I think it's just as easy to program in C++ at that point.

    YMMV, of course.
     
  10. luggage

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    You don't need to try all the alternatives until you've wasted so much time to conclude it's not for you. I don't need to try breathing different gases to realise that the current set up is efficient enough for me. If you're happy with your setup what's wrong with that?

    Seriously - go and finish a game, put a fair few years into writing your own set of libraries and come back, you'll know more about efficient working then.
     
  11. Fabio

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    I just wanted to point out that I'm not religiously advocating C++. I use C++ because it gets the job done, for me, better than any other language currently available on my platforms of choice. I have no problems with others using other languages for that same - or for others - reasons. I have lotsa problems instead with people trying to enforce their view down to my throat, specifically that Java/C# would be a better development environment than C++ + my own modules, and that I haven't realized this yet because I'm, substantially, incapable of keeping up with the times. Now that is offensive and myophe, certainly not that Cas uses Java for himself or that Savant is in the hands of Microsoft and is happy so. I have no problems with that, as long as they don't try to arrogantly assume I don't know my stuff.
     
  12. Fabio

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    Exactly. I'm not selling anything, I'm just defending my right to know what is better for me - and to know it for real - while others aren't simply able to accept that Java and C# are not every productive or intelligent possibility that there is in this world.
     
  13. Fabio

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    Again and again! HOW THE HELL do you know that I haven't studied the alternatives?? Actually, for the passion I have for programming languages and for developing mine (done on the Amiga and made commercial games with it, under advanced development on the PC) I have an interest for every new or old_and_unknown programming language on Earth. Java and C# (and expecially Bill's .NET) just don't buy me, sorry. While they have good points I acknoledge, and incidentally most aren't original at all (are ideas I had developed indipendently myself, and tons of other people as well, by peeking at tens of other programming languages or just by eurekas), switching to any of them wouldn't improve my coding NOR business life at all, they would only ruin it bigtime. Why should I dump all my 10+ years of code and 2348 modules to embrace Java or Bill's C# and this mess or that mess? Care to reply with valid arguments please?
     
  14. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Things aren't really going anywhere. I was kind of hoping for a good discussion as I'm not adverse to changing languages if it would help me earn more money.

    Only thing I've got out of it is that if you're starting from scratch and have zero knowledge of coding you may as well look at Java as C++.

    No conclusive reasons given for switching from my current language, libraries and setup to Java.

    Guess we'll wait 3 months and then have the discussion all over again!
     
  15. Nikster

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    I agree with Fabio on all counts. I myself use C++, I only started to embrace the whole c#.net thing recently to take over from my personal MFC projects so I can spend less time fighting MFC to knock up quick tools, but as for game dev, it will remain C++ for a while, a long while.
     
  16. soniCron

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    Actually, I'm advocating neither Java nor C#. In fact, I'm talking about tools specifically designed for interactive multimedia. Director, Flash, MMF, GameMaker, Torque 2D, and any one of the countless development environments specifically designed for developing multimedia applications. Game development in any one of these environments is inherently more productive than any number of libraries you may have programmed over the years.

    My point is not that C++ sucks, but rather, as long as you're still hard coding every bit into your game, I'm going to work faster than you. The true efficiency isn't in the number of modules you've written or know how to use, it's how frequently you have to use them in the first place.
     
  17. luggage

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    You may as well stop now. What do you think a person's entire set of libraries make? It is an environment specifically designed for developing multimedia applications. It's just one you haven't heard of or have no knowledge of.
     
  18. soniCron

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    Unless I missed his post about his custom WYSIWYG development environment, I don't see how the two are even comparable.
     
  19. luggage

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    So because it has a WYSIWYG interface (even ignoring the fact that you have to get your hands dirty with code at some point) makes it a better option? It really doesn't surprise me you think like that - I probably would have done when writing my first game.
     
  20. DangerCode

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    Oh man, do I ever have your back there. Nothing could ever give a programmer more respect for C#/.NET than prior experience of writing apps in MFC.

    :D
     
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