Optimization for free

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by princec, Jan 30, 2006.

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  1. Pallav Nawani

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    Can Java use Directx/Direct3D? IE could I write a game in java which somehow uses directx, but java insulates me from the nitty-gritties of dealing with directx? I guess I am looking for something like SDL, only in Java.
     
  2. mr n00b

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    Even though I really like C++ and do all my main coding in it it lacks some features from Java such as reflection.

    /mr n00b
     
  3. Savant

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    He's given his reasons in interviews. You know what it is? Familiarity. He only switched to C++ on the last few games. I think up to Quake3, he was still coding in straight C. He said it wasn't because he felt that was the best choice, it was because it was what he knew.

    But, he moved on to C++ once he decided that what he was doing was out dated. Recently, he's taken side trips into Java and other languages to evaluate them and look for better alternatives.

    The smart programmer looks at new options and new possibilities instead of staying stuck with what they know. Carmack is a smart programmer. He's staying with C++ for now but he's also writing the highest of the highest end game engines. He needs maximum speed and maximum control and he won't get that from higher level languages (yet).

    However, nobody on this board is in Carmack's position. Here, the higher level options make a lot more sense.
     
  4. Fabio

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    Instead of answering, you put up a bogus argument: bogus because it has nothing to do with the C++ vs Java argument we're talking here, again by stating the nonsense that developing in Java is less costy than in C++, when I experience the opposite every day. Bogus because there have been good 3D engines that didn't require an investment from The CocaCola Company. And this incidentally includes also id software, that started as a shareware company, you know?
     
  5. luggage

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    I presume you read ALL of Carmacks blog regarding his "favorable" view of Java? Just to even things up a little... (and yes I know he says resource-constrained work).

     
  6. mr n00b

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    Heh, this thread has taken an interesting turn. It went something like this:

    1. Princec claims Java/C# generates more efficient code out of the box than C++ and hence we should all use it instead.

    2. C++ proponents bites back with arguments that C++ is plenty fast.

    3. In a nice contrast to 1. princec and the other Java programmers (correctly) claim that performance isn't that important when developing casual games.

    If so why should I switch from C++ to Java? The only real mainstream reason that I can think of is that Java has automatic garbage collecting, and memory leaks hasn't been a problem for me for many years.

    /mr n00b
     
  7. luggage

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    That sums me up - I just can't see a reason to switch. I can code efficently and quickly, I know my engine, all the source code works, and I don't have to spend time learning a new language.
     
  8. Fabio

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    They can't give you a good reason. I pray that the day when C++ dies comes soon, but it's not Java nxor C# that will replace it, that's for sure. At least not where code counts. The rest is only a matter of personal tastes and choices.
     
  9. Savant

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    We can give you lots of good reasons. The problem is: you won't hear them.
     
  10. luggage

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    Well try then. Put them in bullet points. Only ones I can come up with are...

    * You get a 'free' Mac\Web version.
    * That's it.
     
  11. Fabio

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    Don't confuse "my arguments aren't able to convince you" with "you won't hear them".
    I am here to listen but don't pretend that I automagically say "damn, you're right!" whatever you say just for the sake of it.
     
  12. Nikster

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    That has to be the most bizzare thing said in this whole thread.
     
  13. soniCron

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    I'll sum up my objectives, since there seem to be two trains of thought in this thread. (One being processing performance optimization, another being application development optimization.)

    We're all game developers. What does that mean? We make games. Does XORing bits make a better game? No. Does being careful of cache misses make a good game? No. In fact, not one low level programming technique makes a good game.

    Now, wouldn't it stand to reason that the most efficient use of my time would be to cut out as many things I don't need? In fact, the ideal development environment for a game probably wouldn't involve much actual code at all. After all, my time is spent more valuably in the iterative design process, not bit twiddling.

    Bit twiddling may be 733t, but it's certainly not terribly productive in independent game development. You enjoy your C++, and I'm going to take advantage of every opportunity I can to translate my ideas into reality with as little exposure to the guts of the machine as possible.

    Does that make me an inefficient coder? Perhaps, but I don't give a damn. I'm not here to show how cool I am that I can rewrite some z sorting algorithm to be more cache friendly. I'm here to make games. Why are you here?
     
  14. Fabio

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    I am "here" to make games, too. Can I do them in C++, in assembly, or in whatever languages pleases me, please, without being called a granny that isn't capable of keeping up with the times? I think I have more experience (retail only though, so far) than many people on this board. When the Amiga died I lost my interest to make games. 10+ years later I'm getting some of it back, and you're telling me that suddenly all of my environment is inadequate.

    Let away that I don't do ONLY games, and I use the same modules for all my programmings. Should I dump my modules and, when I code games, make them in BlitzBasic instead?

    PS: just found this nice post by ggambett:

     
  15. soniCron

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    No. I'm telling you it's not the most efficient.


    How often would you use those modules in a Blitz application? Or, perhaps, some other environment that already had that functionality built-in?
     
  16. Fabio

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    Put things out of context, dude, that will sure make your day.
     
  17. Fabio

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    How can you judge my modules? You don't know them.
    Actually I don't even use the STDLIB nor any other standard library.. so I think that, if Blitz allowed it, I'd only use my modules. Why do you have a problem with that?
     
  18. soniCron

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    From that response, I can only assume they are the most efficient. Is that right? Are they?


    Who said I had a problem with what you're doing? I'm telling you that there are other more efficient ways of creating games. You don't seem to want to accept that.
     
  19. Savant

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    Ahh OK. Now I see where you're coming from. We live in completely seperate universes.
     
  20. Fabio

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    Wow, 140 posts so far and what did we gain?
     
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