New chip will stop Piracy dead in its tracks?

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by MFS, May 25, 2008.

  1. gmcbay

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    0
    These types of systems work well on newer consoles, they don't totally stop piracy but they make it enough of a pain that only the most hardcore will even try, which is basically a good enough solution because most of those people will not buy your game in any case.

    BUT, this is something you can't really retrofit on to an existing platform (especially one with tons of different hardware vendors) like the PC. It only makes sense to use this system if you're willing to tell every potential customer who has a motherboard without this chip that they can't play your game. Even if all new PCs magically started including them tomorrow (which won't, of course, happen), it would be years before any developer locked their software to this system. A lot of indie developers are paranoid about supporting DX7 level 3D hardware, and that's been around for almost a decade, how long would it take until you could realistically start using this protection system? I'll probably be dead before then.

    So ultimately this has a huge chicken and egg problem, developers (including commercial) won't support it unless the installed numbers are huge and there isn't much incentive to buy a motherboard with this built in unless there is a substantial software library that requires it.

    If Microsoft didn't have the clout to make Palladium happen, what chance do these folks have? Absolutely none.
     
  2. chanon

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's a comment from Digg that explains it:

     
  3. Gary Preston

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chanon: That scenario would present more of a challenge for pirates. As they'd need to extract their own private key in order to decrypt games and post them for all. Which assuming no flaw in the implementation may result in destroying their chip just to get at the key.

    I still believe from a DRM only perspective that it will not dent piracy and that someone will find a way around it, be it a flaw in the implementation, or via a hardware mod. Although if TPM is integrated into the CPU rather than as a separate chip on the motherboard, that could be a different matter.

    Having read more about TPM though it has a wide variety of uses outside of DRM that would be very beneficial to end users. But on the flip side, it's rife for abuse by corporations/governments.

    I'm 50/50 as to whether I'd like to see this take off or not.
     
  4. mot

    mot
    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    0
    More from the wikipedia article...

    To install this f*^$&ing game please:
    1) close all applications
    2) reboot
    3) get into BIOS (sure you know how)
    4) turn on the TPM (sure you know how)
    5) reboot
    6) connect to the internet
    7) install game
    8) have fun!

    People may have it on their motherboards but if they don't turn it on they are out.

    For this idea to work it has to be the ONLY distribution method EVER used for a given game, so together with reducing piracy it also greatly reduces the number of potential customers.
     
  5. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah ok whatever who cares anyway what we all think eh?... It's a good idea in theory and anyway 'what customers?' on PC they are rarer than rocking horse poo these days anyway from where I sit LOL :)

    Seriously tho 'anything' that sticks it up pirates is good with me... customer iconvience or not I want to make money not keep loosing it in torrents on PC.

    This 'could be good' if it's allowed to be.
     
  6. papillon

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,193
    Likes Received:
    0
    So... you don't care if you have zero customers at all as long as nobody pirates your game? Well, you're welcome to feel that way, but I'd rather have both customers and pirates. :)

    Hey, I have a great idea! Why not encode your game to display seizure-inducing light flashes and earsplitting sounds? That way any pirate who steals the game will get what's coming to them! So will any customer, but hey, anything that sticks it to pirates is good, right?
     
  7. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heh luckily we don't sit all in same place... plenty of PC customers here, 60% of my total.

    About the chip is totally useless. There are easier and more customer friendly ways to protect yourself from piracy, like (I'll repeat again for the 100th time) using online-only games. Probably would piss off some customers but not as like that chip...!!! :eek:
     
  8. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    But using this chip for copy protection will be optional, right? So what's the problem? If you don't like it, you just don't use it :)
     
  9. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably won't be used by anyone :D
     
  10. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh dear... you appear to have wandered off into the realms of the ridiculous there papillion - thanks for twisting my words :p. Any iconvience to the consumer would be small perhaps and you know it, but you can keep your pirates all the same.

    Sometimes I just think you are all mad on here :) something interesting comes along like this to help fight piracy like many things before it and all you do is debate how useless it is 'before' it has even happened.

    LOL.
     
    #30 Adrian Cummings, May 27, 2008
    Last edited: May 27, 2008
  11. papillon

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,193
    Likes Received:
    0
    Inflating your words, yes, but that does seem to be what you're saying.

    You claim there are currently no paying PC customers.

    You claim "'anything' that sticks it up pirates is good with me"

    You claim that you don't care how much your methods inconvenience the customer.

    And you claim that anyone arguing with you is mad? :)

    I also buy games, so I have a player's worries as well. I have a stake in these things since I don't want to pay for a game to be later told that I don't really own it and I'm not actually allowed to play it. Of course, I'm not all that worried, because I firmly believe that pirates will come along and crack it and I'll get to play my games again... but I resent being made to depend on them.

    Also, I personally would prefer that both players and developers could find a paradigm they could all live with and not feel like the other side is out to get them so much. I know it's not good for *my* mental and physical health if I let my blood boil over Stinking Thieving Pirates and equate every rapidshare poster with someone personally wanting me dead. My thoughts go that way sometimes, I get really pissed off. It's not good for me. It is better for me AND for my fans if I chill out a bit, think positive enforcement rather than negative, and don't scream for blood.

    Similarly, I sometimes see other developers falling into the trap of thinking of the customer as the enemy. It's not good for your blood pressure and it's not good for your fans, if you end up punishing them for things other people have done.
     
  12. Adrian Cummings

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not claiming anything here as such, rather 'I' for fact have less 'direct' paying PC customers than many of you now most likely as compared to years gone by that's all and feel I would have a few more if my games were chipped in future on a system that had it fitted and I used it in my end software that I sold directly off site (probably not through disto partners at this stage for other reasons).

    'Anything' that sticks it up pirates is good with me sorry YES it's true!

    Small 'possible' inconvenience to the customer is what I meant YES if that is the price of using the chip! i.e. bit like ad-wrap in that you have to watch an advert first 'before' you can play the game perhaps.

    Mad... many of you probably are for all I know, but it makes for interesting games all the same :)

    Bubble of calm, bubble of calm... it's just a chip not the basis for a real terminator or Skynet (or is it?)

    I'm gone from this thread, bye.
     
    #32 Adrian Cummings, May 27, 2008
    Last edited: May 27, 2008
  13. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, well, I was just looking at it from a developers point of view, as this is a developers forum :rolleyes:

    But same things goes for people buying games: if you have a problem with the copy protection scheme of a game, don't buy that game :)
     
  14. Sybixsus

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well if Papillon's attitude as a gamer happens to be a widespread attitude, then it could well drive people away from PC gaming altogether. It's well and good saying don't use it, but if enough people use it that the average gamer hears about it or is inconvenienced by it, they may well say "stuff this for a game of soldiers, I'm getting a Wii/DS/whatever."

    In the past, none of the console manufacturers were aiming at the casual audience, but Nintendo are now. Almost exclusively, one might argue. So it really could affect most indie developers now because almost all of us are selling to people who could use a console instead. Indeed many probably already do, but not necessarily exclusively.

    For one reason or another, the vast majority of us are not going to be developing for closed platforms like that, so it might pay to be concerned about anything (else) which is going to help drive a stake in the heart of one of the only open platforms left.
     
  15. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    But most people will still have their PC, for non-gaming purposes. And if some of us clever indies starts pushing our games as 100% TPM free... that would generate a spark of interest among some, I bet...
     
  16. papillon

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,193
    Likes Received:
    0
    *nod* Which is part of why I'm often cheered by the claims of the imminent demise of the PC gaming industry... if all the big companies give up and go away, more for me! :)
     
  17. Sybixsus

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, of course, PC's aren't going anywhere, but I'm very ambivalent on whether that would create an opportunity for the developers who remained or not. I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand, but I'm not convinced that there would be anything to push at. If people aren't in the mindset of playing games on their PC, where are they going to learn about them? If you weren't playing games on your PC, would you still be checking out game news sites purely for curiosity? If you're not playing games on your PC, are you still going to be having conversations with people who are or will most of your friends be using the same console you are, leading you to discuss those games instead.

    I genuinely don't have answers to those questions, but I'm dubious. Part of me would like to see all the competition wipe themselves out and make my life easy, of course, but another part of me thinks you might have no competition but not enough eyeballs on your game for it to matter. Millions of PC users there might be, but will they know my game exists? For me, that's the biggest challenge now let alone if it got harder.

    My own experience is that since I gave up upgrading my PC to play "the latest", because I was given an XBox360, I've stopped playing games on PC almost entirely. I'm out of the mindset. Now I *do* still frequent the sites and talk to people, but I think only from a developer POV, rather than a gamer one.
     
  18. Backov

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, because no one else would have started the video game industry.

    As for this chip, it won't fly - just like the last 10 attempts we've heard about and haven't won't fly, for all the reasons stated.
     
  19. electronicStar

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    One thing to note is that the concept of this chip might have it banned in some countries. For example, several times in the past, the european union has ruled to forbid sale of chips with personalized identification, in order to protect consumer privacy (see pentium 3 ssn)
     
  20. Mattias Gustavsson

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, I think that our marketing channels would definitely change too. Into what, I've got no idea, but maybe it will make word of mouth and viral marketing techniques our most powerful marketing methods...
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer