Which comes again to my point, excellence in all three areas (Programming - Content - Design) takes time. You can compress time if you have capitol. If you don't have capitol you have to take your time. So you need to find something that will sustain you for that long period of time. I've found that only a passion for the activity you are performing and the game experience that you are creating is enough to sustain you over that long period of time. Unfortunatly if you accept capitol to accelerate your business you'll find you have a very hard time remaining independant. Which leads to the conclusion of my article...
I accept the Capitol! It shall be mine! (Sorry, sorry, old English class habits coming to the fore. Accepting capital threatens your ability to be independent.)
Oh boy, dyslexia strikes again. You can posture all you want with your big ideas but all it takes is someone to correct your spelling to cut you down to size . (It's a good thing) I'll leave the mistake there for the sake of context.
My point isn't I or someone else should be on the list, just it's way too narrowly defined to fit your argument. Open the eyes and viola there's lots of guys doing well in an "indie" kind of way. One example, xgenstudios.com with Motherlode, Stick Arena, Fishy, etc. Very innovative! But instead people want to find reasons to be negative and that nobody does well following their own path. False! Shoot I've followed my own path and done well. But guess personally selling 3000 units of our BLOX series and about 1500 more through partners doesn't count as I don't fit this narrowly defined "indie". And Midnight Strike, The Black Knight, Realspace series, Dashing Dan's Date-o-Rama, and many others don't count either. Oh and of course little tiny never used sites like ArcadeTown or HeavyGames...
I was playing stick arena just this week, I love all their stuff. It's too bad it seems like everyone else who ends up capitAlizing on their work. I relaly like their design sensibilities.
Fishy / Feeding Frenzy, very negative way to see it. I'd bet they're doing well enough that barely matters. Want few more samples of innovative guys taking risks and getting rewarded? Newgrounds/Behemoth - Alien Hominid / DanNMe / etc MoFunZone - Sinjid series / etc Miniclip - virtually invented adver games Point is I've seen lots of guys (and yes gals) do well following their passion in an "indie" kind of way. Take blinders off. Life is good. Tons of innovation and appropriate rewards like Cute Knight, Aveyond, and Masters of Defense just recently. Indie crisis = none. To all the consistent nay sayers, STOP SEEING THE WORLD NEGATIVELY! You're only hurting yourself.
I think the problem is, there are actually two groups of people on these forums, there are the people making the more traditional casual games, in the popcap style, and then there is everyone else. Both sides occasionally get on each others nerves, and we argue a lot because advice thats good for one lot is just terrible for the other, and vice versa. Yes there is crossover, but in general this is true. I'm almost thinking that as well as a forum for the casual games discussion, you almost need a forum for the non-casual ones. There is just so much about the business, game design, production values, feature lists, marketing etc, that is different between the two groups. I have good results from both adwords, and political blog advertising, but this opinion and information is useless to someone making a match 3. A discussion about whether or not players can cope with the right mouse button is useless for people making Space Station Manager, an RPG or Democracy. I dont mean useless as in just not helpful, it can actually be dangerous, as any advice given from one group to the other can be just wrong. Maybe if there was a separate forum there would be less arguments, because I really think there are two audiences here.
That was mentioned in the past I think? I still agree it is a good idea. One "general" forum and two distinct forums for discussing games as pertaining to general indiegames (quality and usability still being a byword) and the other for.. well... I don't know, I don't think "casual" is still the correct word because that makes it black and white. I agree there are casual games that are targeting the very tops of portals (ala popcap) that are different to every other game. That includes rts, political sims, shootemups and.. crucially "different" kinds of games that ARE intended to be played (in smaller numbers) by casual players. The points you make about certain discussion being dangerous are true I think. Some we can learn from (as I have said before) "take what is good and use it on your hardcore game" but some is misleading. For example: If you are making a game that will never be played by a typical casual player, reading some of the advice around here could delay the release of your game while you try to work in some streamlining to avoid using the r/m button or the keyboard, maybe you end up changing (compromising) the design of your game to fit into the perfect area of the market your game doesn't really belong! If there is seperate forum, however it ended up, it should have plenty of thought and feedback from the users (us) before being put into operation. The casual game forum never really took off because everyone was still on every other part of the board and importantly because the general forum still talked about casual games. If you have a specific forum for one type then you need one for the other or else everyone just posts where the traffic is. I think possibly MORE than just a sub-forum is needed but two seperate links from the frontpage to "strictly business and casual game forum" (how to make the most polished, accessible and portal friendly games) and "Non casual game and not so business orientated forum" (how to make the kinds of games not normally played by typical casual players but doing them well). There is cross over, but I think it would help stop all the arguing. Same goes for press release and feedback - sub forums under the above main forums. Then if someone posts a match3 for feedback *ALL* of the contributors are there (or should be there) on the understanding it is a business and casual game place not a mix. If you don't like it then keep quiet and don't post "clone" after every obvious target. Likewise on the other forum, people can post about RPGs, RTSs and whatever without getting the same stuff repeated at them "use a single mouse button" "needs industry standard gfx to compete" "you are doomed to failure with a game that is not going to work on portals". I think it's a great idea. I know people will post after these posts and say where they can see problems, but the problems are already here. There would be no more "excuses" for derailing threads (especially feedback and release ones) because you are there because you ARE that kind of dev. Personally I would be on BOTH forums (so it's still not hard to treat indiegamer.com as one source of info) because I am interested in both types of games as it happens. I would do this knowing the differences and knowing I shouldn't force my opinion on a game based on the other kind of game dev. That is a long winded way of saying - yeah, please do what Cliffski said <edit> I also think a lot of the negativity around here is coming from the blue-sky thinkers who are feeling bound by the opinions of the business orientated. The liberated feeling of thinking "game first - money later" may not be wise for business but it can work wonders for all those new game ideas people seem to complain about not existing. As I see indiegamer.com as one of if not the most important congregation of game devs actually producing games for sale I think if "changes" are needed then freeing each type of game dev from the shackles of it's inverse type on these forums will boost/encourage both types of game development and help both types reach their full potential. knocking the wind out of the sails of devs who try something new is not good but it happens all the time around here. The same is true for those who choose to go ultra casual and want fast income, they usually suffer an anti-casual backlash. Also Signal to Noise should be a lot less with this in place. Yes I have been thinking too much about this, when I should be making games.
Side Note : Shark Shark for Intellivision is where all this comes from if we're going back to the original game. It has growth in stages, and tail biting etc.. as well. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sprout people never even saw Fishy. Certainly I was unaware of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shark!_Shark!
Hey, what about me; I've been involved in this for years and years now, and I still haven't made any money. And it's definitely not a hobby, because it's far too serious, and I don't really enjoy it at all most of the time. And I'm still doing it, and have no intention of stopping. Now that is sustainability - I mean, what could go wrong? I say yes! After all, if you don't make that game yourself, nobody else is going to want to do it, and you'll never even know what it would have been like. And yep, I'll go to the back of the line, and I haven't quit my day job. I don't need an easy life; I can work two jobs.
Dan probably suspects that you are going to get some money from this Anthony. REM: Just kidding nothing more. No another flame war please.
I don't want to much further perpetuate this off-topic deviation, so I'll keep it short: I don't see it as dangerous -- I see it as inevitable. The kind of person who doesn't understand why the right mouse button should or should not be excluded from a control scheme isn't a good designer to begin with. Any advice they inappropriately apply to their games is incidental and only fits snuggly among the rest of their probably poor development decisions. If you believe for one second that any developer worth their salt would compromise a game due to misplaced understanding of our suggestions...
Actually I was referring to "helping others". Not everyone is a golden game designer from day one. That is part of why we read "tips" here. I understand what you are saying, that if someone read good advice and misused it then they are perhaps not the best person to do the job - however those people DO exist and are a "customer" of these forums. Many of us, regardless of our self belief do actually learn a lot from others experience, not everyone learns everything in one day. Maybe someone who is not the "complete designer" can misconstrue the advice given here. More importantly, I am thinking that it would just make the forums a whole lot nicer and more positive place to be. If someone isn't even open minded to the possiblity of influence from reading their peers advice then they are probably designing in a vaccum to begin with and will be at the opposite extreme of what you describe.. the "Know it all designer" who has nothing to learn from anyone. Those kinds of designers wouldn't actually be reading the advice given in the first place so I doubt it applies to them anyway. In most cases I think people are very accepting of advice given around here, you can see it in replies and the prompt "i'll fix that" in feedback threads. If you personally feel you have it all down and need no advice you obviously will not be misusing it. (which is basically what you said). Remember, not everyone on this board is a "master" designer, nor claims to be, nor could even be - surely it's good to clear things up for this large bracket of people who are actually reading the advice instead of leaving it untouched for the "elite" who don't read it? Maybe they are not "worth their salt" does that exclude them from making games and becomming "worth their salt"? Is the entry admission of creating indie games a firm understanding of all areas of game production (Not just design) or do they learn a bit at a time and get better over time? Also it is interesting that you pick out "designer" as there are many more issues here than a simple design one. And not forgetting how many times the "is the game i'm making ok with keyboard or do I need mouse"? question spring up. The fact is it is not a black and white answer depending on the game and audience (and their playing capabilities). Usually the thread is split between "Use the mouse only" and "give the keyboard option" with arguments for both, mainly based on conflicting business concerns of the people answering. That is why it would be clearer and less "dangerous" for those who are seeking guidance to be in a forum fitting their intended game type, unless you laugh at the idea of teaching wrong tricks to a bunch of newb designers who end up shooting themselves in the foot rather than providing clear and tailored advice.
You just took what I said to a whole new level! That is so not what I was trying to say! No, the point was that if one takes the right mouse button thing literally, then they've totally missed the point of the exercise. It's not about "the" right mouse button -- it's about the desire to streamline and simplify as much as possible, provided it enhances the game. The right mouse button is incidental. Everyone needs to learn, but if one doesn't pick up on that intent during the course of some such discussion and only focuses on the material right mouse button, then the distinction between "indie" games and casual games is certainly the least of their problems.
I realise the whole right mouse button thing is not the point, and indeed in the original posts it was merely an example (and had been mentioned in relation to the rage of magic thread or something so was fresh in my mind). My point extends beyond that to people being influenced to cater towards where they believe the "money" is. This crops up because everyone assumes that everyone who posts a game feedback request or whatever is primarily looking for money. That is when it is viewed in the context of a casual game. That is when issues such as simplified controls for instance crop up. To you and I (and many others) we know we can divide the opinions up into valid and not-valid for the game in question, but for some posting it may not be the case. Which is not really what I want to pin my bage on because, as you say, that is for the individual to work out. I don't think it helps to have this crosstalk all the time though (for anyone, regardless of skill). What I see is not so much "danger" (forgive the loose use of words when I was talking about a vision in the post you originally replied to/quoted) but confusion. <my real point> 2 distinct forums or even 2 sub forums and no "general" game design one (because the arguments and non helpful, but well intentioned help would carry on in there still) would be good. If my latter replies in this thread avoid your specific point, and I read it the wrong way that's because the designer thing you picked up on is not primarily what I was interested in and I don't fully understand where you are going with it (hence my reply that missed the mark! ). I'll say no more on it cos I've got some "to-dos" to-do before midnight Cheers Daniel.
I dunno; I think it's valid and useful to discuss these points on a game-by-game basis. Can the controls be simplified? Should they be simplified? It should always be a discussion; not just people dispensing advice. After all, there are always advantages to simplifying the controls further, and there are always sacrifices. Doesn't matter what your target audience is, it's still worth kicking these ideas around. I hope so too, but my point was - if I've been doing it for years, and haven't made any money, and don't really enjoy doing it, and I'm still not going to stop, then it makes me pretty much indestructable.
What doesn't kill you only makes you Anthony... err stronger. From all I've seen and heard Cletus if put together and marketed right will do very well for you.
oh!, what a long post. I agree with the article in the sense that you have to do something that really motivates you. BreakQuest was in a technical way harder that the puzzle I'm doing now but I'll be back to arcade games when I finish this one, that's what I like to play and that's what motivates me most.