MochiCoins :-)

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by Bad Sector, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    The Flash tool is too programmer-unfriendly, try haXe.
     
  2. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tried that already but it doesn't solve my biggest problem, being able to reload content on the fly. Those who never tried it can't understand the difference. But once you try...! ;)
    I know many BIG programmers that once try LUA/Python, they definitely adopt it to write their main game logic, while leaving the rest in pure C/C++.
    In flash, you can't do anything like that, unfortunately :(
     
  3. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    You can load content on the fly: just download a ByteArray with the content data using a local http connection. With a preprocessor directive switch between the http loader and the embedded data like
    Code:
    #if debugging
    // get data from http (for development/debugging)
    #else
    // get embedded data (for release)
    #end
    
    You might also want to try some the haXe Remoting API, it might help you on this aspect.
     
  4. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm sorry but you didn't understand what I mean. I mean change the ACTUAL GAME CODE (even adding new functions), and "recompile" (reload) the script with a keystroke, and continue playing/debugging your game.
     
  5. justkevin

    justkevin New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure I understand, either. Do you mean start playing the game, change some code, press a button and have the game that you were playing be updated with the new code without having to restart the game?
     
  6. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes exactly, that's the way I've been developing all my games in C, and now in python :) saves huge amount of dev time.
     
  7. Indiepath

    Indiepath New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do believe some attempts at an LUA VM have been attempted in Flash - maybe Mochi could bundle something into the solution? (the do have the skills)
     
  8. Xiotex

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2005
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    How long does it take you to develop a game in C and python?
     
  9. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    I have never tried it, but it is possible to dynamically load a SWF file using Loader's load or loadBytes and use objects provided by said SWF, it is also possible to do that.

    Some parts of the Mochi API works like this (Leaderboards for example).
     
  10. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    depends on the game... for example UBM took me 3 months. There's much going on in that game, ranking, arranging fights, training, database of 1000 boxers, real-time/text fighting, boxers that age and retire, new ones that grow up, sponsorship, and much more.
    I really don't think I could do such a game without being able to use VC break/edit/continue system.
     
  11. jankoM

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jack Norton: You can change game without recompiling and restarting in C ??
     
  12. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    haha is fun how everyone is so astonished when I tell this... seems like I'm the only programmer on earth who use this ESSENTIAL feature (but is not true since even Emmanuel uses it, and surely he works fast).
    I use VC6 and have been using this feature forever. Easy, you run the game in windowed mode, click break on the button tab, you add even 1500000 lines of functions and hit recompile (or alt+F10 if I remember well).
    VoilĂ  your game now has all the new added function. Of course I never added too much code at once, but it works and saves insane amount of time. Something you can't do in flash and other languages.
     
  13. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    It's not something essential, people programmed without this for decades, but i agree that if works it can save some time. However i have a question:

    It is possible to replace the executable code with new one, but when you hit break there is also some state in the existing code. What happens to this state? How is transferred to the new code? For example, assuming you have the code
    Code:
    int foo(int b)
    {
        int a = 0;
        for (int i=0; i<b; i++) a += i;
        return a;
    }
    
    and you modify it to
    Code:
    int foo(int b, [b]int c[/b])
    {
        int a = 0;
        for (int i=0; i<b; i++)
            for ([b]int j[/b]=0; j<c; j++) a += i+j;
        return a;
    }
    
    what the memory for j and c will be? If the break happens while the loop is executed, and the code tries to continue from there, won't this -in the best scenario, since the function code itself will be different- have a problem *returning* from the function given that the stack expectations will be different?

    Or i misunderstood something and you can't do that?
     
  14. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    In that case it restarts the program from beginning of the function, clearing the stack.
     
  15. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    Does that mean it keeps track of the program's state before each function call?
     
  16. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably, I don't know exactly how it works, but works.
    I couldn't use it in VC Express, but Emmanuel has VC Pro and said it works. I still keep using VC6 though :)
     
  17. tomason

    tomason New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a developer, one of my reservations is the cost of the service. The split is better than 50/50, but it's still only 60/40. The perception issue that terin raised is applicable here as well. Most services we've looked at for payment processing take much less of a cut than 40% (paypal, BMT, amazon, google).

    We decided on Paypal, which is about 5% for the price of our game. That's what we're used to. 40% is a tough one to swallow. However, from the perspective of casual download portals and mobile phone payments, 40% is very competitive. But we haven't done anything with them either.

    As long as developers are willing to pay so much for these services, these services will continue to charge this much (whether it's MochiCoins, Big Fish, or AT&T). One thing all these middlemen have in common is that they need content to sell. If enough developers decided to not pay so much, the services would become cheaper.

    Compared to AAA titles, Flash games probably are negligibly cheap to develop, but they're still not free. We are selling 1 game so far, and will be releasing another one next month. We are using Paypal and are making enough to support 2 fulltime developers plus art, sound, music, and writing contractors. Only a small portion of players who play our web version buy the full version. If we start using MochiCoins and if buyers who would have paid through Paypal use it instead, then we lose money on those transactions. The hope though is that MochiCoins would attract new buyers who wouldn't have paid with Paypal. Would the increase in buyers more than compensate for the 40% loss? I don't know. That's the risk.

    I agree with terin's assessment that these API's will fail, if they follow the course they're on. As long as most flash content IS free, players are going to be reluctant to pay for any of it. In order for the market to change, a lot of developers need to start charging. Slowly, the players' perceptions will change. What MochiCoins and FGL need are LOTS of developers using their APIs. You don't attract LOTS of developers by charging 40%. Can you imagine Paypal charging that much?

    Furthermore, what about flash portals? The ad industry is failing, and they're looking for new sources of revenue. Not all portals allow just any submission. In order for some of the larger sites to post our game, we've had to pay them a percentage. All but one of these sites have done very well for us (and them). I really doubt these sites would post a MochiCoins game without a cut, probably at least a third of sales (that's been our experience...most flash portals want about that much). Successful indies are paying at least that much on marketing anyway. Another 40% for paypemt processing is not doable.

    Maybe Mochi's target developer isn't the professional one. MochiAds aren't good enough to support a development studio (the flash portals mentioned above don't want mochiads either), and I doubt MochiCoins would be good enough. However, both are probably good enough for a high school hobby developer to buy a new pair of shoes and dinner for a date every once in a while.

    That said, I like MochiMedia. I like what they do, and I'm excited to see how things work out. I would like to see MochiCoins work, I just don't think charging 40% is the way to make it happen. MochiAds haven't paid very well, but ads are basically dead now anyway (and that's not Mochi's fault). The tools they have created (mochibot, leaderboards, link tracking) are awesome.

    My opinion: don't charge more than 10% for payment processing. If MochiCoins works like it should, then it is providing more value than Paypal, so charging more than 5% is ok. Just don't go over 10%! Going higher really makes a difference for us indie developers.

    Also, I think it'll be necessary to provide an affiliate type tracking and payment system for flash portals. The developer needs a way to specify a percentage for a particular site, and the site needs a page to track the sales and how much they are owed. I'm sure some portals would prefer a 3rd party to track sales anyway.

    -Tom
    www.gabob.com
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer