Java "Consumer JRE"

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by Bad Sector, May 25, 2007.

  1. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    The story.

    In a few words, seems that Sun took notice that today Java isn't very consumer friendly, especially in the applet and downloadable programs front and they're trying to fix these issues. Particularly interesting are the Java Kernel feature which will contain only a very basic JRE and download the rest on demand (they managed to run Limewire with a 4mb JRE) and the Quickstarter feature which will, well, start the runtime faster by caching some stuff at startup time (they say they won't load a JRE at startup time though, so i'm not sure how else they will fix this - but then, if there is only a smally 4mb JRE, load time will be vastly reduced). For windows developers the use of Direct3D for simple 2D applications seems a nice addition too.

    Personally i also liked the new UI for Swing. It was just about time to get rid of that ugly metal theme. Still, the new "Nimbus" look doesn't look 100% right, but it's far far better than the monstrosity that metal is :p.
     
  2. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    A while to wait for it though, even so.

    Cas :)
     
  3. electronicStar

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    The dragon is awaken after a thousand years, but isn't it too late?
     
  4. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Too late for what?

    Cas :)
     
  5. electronicStar

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    To become popular:p
     
  6. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Meh, it's already popular in ordinary dev circles. It'll trickle down to game dev eventually.

    Cas :)
     
  7. oNyx

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    0
  8. wazoo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm enjoying LWJGL at the moment, but I wish Sun shake things up:

    1. Drop Java3D. Does anybody use it outside of universities?

    2. Create a "Games Dev Portal" site similar to the DirectX area on the MSDN. Have friendly links with information about LWJGL and JOGL all of which have been used in commercial games!!! They sort of have something now...but. meh.

    I realize they probably don't want to get into the business of picking and choosing 3rd party java libraries (such as LWJGL and JOGL) but c'mon...if their current approach isn't working, why not shake things up a bit?

    3. If you already like Java, then you're more than likely going to stick with it. However that tends to promote a bit of "tunnel vision". Maybe Sun should create a Game Liason type of position just to gather data from game/entertainment companies on *why* they're not using Java. Is it just because of the bundled runtime issue? Or is there more there...?

    I don't know...I definitely don't have all the answers on the best of days, but given how portable java is across the PC / Mac / Linux platform, and contrast that with the adoption by game companies, I'm just hoping for more than what they currently have...

    If they stand still for too long, XNA will cream them IMHO.

    /shrug
     
  9. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    Comparing XNA and Java is like comparing -guess!- apples and oranges (how original... but yeah it's just like that).

    XNA is a framework built on .NET.
    Java is a language, a runtime environment and a library of classes.

    It's more appropriate to compare XNA and LWJGL, but even in this case, i think that LWJGL is a more low-level library than XNA.

    If XNA-for-mobile-devices existed, it *could* be comparable with J2ME plus some of JSPs that had to do with model skinning stuff, etc.


    Also, why drop Java3D? Some people use it you know...
     
  10. wazoo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed Bad Sector.

    They are apples and oranges, but they both have a feel of "next generation" in terms of game development (at least that's how I look at them).

    But I'm not trying to start a flame war about languages (my apologies if that's how it's interpreted).

    I just meant that if Sun is serious about gaming, then maybe they should start throwing some resources into a proper community around it, other than some forums....

    I mean how about some interviews with today's entertainment companies that successfully use Java? What were their challenges? What were their successes? While there are a lot of great gaming libraries other than LWJGL and JOGL, at least start highlighting what those are and what they give you...?

    I don't know...like I say, I don't have the answers :(

    And about Java3D, I just meant that even Sun doesn't really make it out to be "commercial grade"...more like an experiment in 3D scene management. /shrug.

    Maybe put together a game console prototype built on a stripped down java runtime with some OpenGL-capable hardware?

    ah well...
     
  11. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's called a Mac Mini :D

    Apparently the Gaming Technology Group have just been recognised finally as being on to something big and the top brass have started to put money into the client side of development (as opposed to their previous focus which was serverside) but you only have to take one look at what MS are doing with XNA, XBLA, .net and Vista, etc. to realise just how far behind they are in this. Largely I think because no-one truly competent is in charge of it all at board level. Sun need to hire some new blood in to help out.

    Cas :)
     
  12. wazoo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    0
    QFT

    Well hopefully they'll start to get their act together. They could always pull a google by luring away some unappreciated higher level DirectX/XNA manager or two...
     
  13. electronicStar

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lol you are probably the more qualified person to help them right now, you and Evanstaul who did Rage of magic. You know the market and what devs need.
    Oh and I remember the conversations on JGO when everybody was thinking the Playstation 3 would run on Java :D
     
  14. tau

    tau New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agree, there is good future for Java as the gaming platform. It works fine on cell phones, it can work fine on PCs or game consoles.

    Guys, I always wanted to start 3D game development on Java. Can you round up please the existing 3D libs and their cons and pros from your experience?
     
  15. Bad Sector

    Original Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    5
    Just noticed this blog entry on Java Kernel where the author of JK says that
     
  16. oNyx

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    0
    With a custom stripped JRE the default opengl gears demo (lwjgl) is about 1.5mb as installer (lzma+p200 compression). A very minimalistic game with a few sound effects, one or two tracker modules, gamepad support and a handfull of tiny textures fits nicely into about 2.5mb. If you try hard enough. ;)

    With 5mb as target you have quite a lot of room. Any extra code gets compressed to basically nothing:
    http://kaioa.com/svg/compression_ratio.svgz (looks better with Opera)

    With this setup you get something like "jar.pack.lzma" or "jar.pack.lzma (no debug)". Even if you throw 10mb* of classes into the installer, it will merely grow by about 1mb. Or more... depending on how much more of the standard lib you're pulling in.

    [* For those who aren't familiar with Java... thats a totally insane amount of classes. It's enough for writing Tribal Trouble - twice.]

    So, these figures aren't really that surprising. The consumer JRE is more then welcome, however, since stripping a JRE is a major PITA. Well, the effort is sort of acceptable if you use some kind of bare bone and add RT stuff on a by package level. Or if you settle with a specific subset of packages like util, io, net, nio and xml.
     
  17. elias

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to mention a breach of the standard JRE license. You could probably do a manual stripped JRE off the now open sourced openjdk, but that's not the stable java 6 (and openjdk still contains a few closed source components).

    - elias
     
  18. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shhh, they're turning a blind eye to it for now ;) Remember Molebox keeps prying eyes out of dirty secrets...

    Cas :)
     
  19. wazoo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it just me or is the very idea of Sun going after the guys trying like hell to get Java recognized/deployed as mainstream "enough" for casual games, akin to the record companies suing the very customers that buy their products? :p
     
  20. oNyx

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, they certainly won't sue anyone for that. Fortunately Sun isn't retarded. For one they aren't losing anything. If they would win it wouldn't even yield enough money to cover the coffee costs of one month. And PR wise it would be a pile of poop. Totally not worth it.

    Heck. They even demonstrate how little they care by promoting such oh-so-evil software. ;)
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer