it takes an artist to know an artist

Discussion in 'Music & Sound Portfolios' started by matmilne, Oct 23, 2008.

  1. WaveRider

    Indie Author

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    I agree with everything you guys have said about this Matt guy. Not to mention that his ideas about forming a personal collaborative relationship with his clients kind of creeps me out. (I picture him pounding away at piano keys next to the hole in his basement where the client sits applying lotion to itself.)

    But...

    That is some damn good music on his site.
     
  2. dannthr

    dannthr New Member

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    Hahahah, Andrew, don't knock the potential of the devs on this forum too much! ;)

    No one is going to hire Michelangelo because they believe he has potential. On the contrary, Michelangelo was highly motivated to make sure everyone agreed he was an incredible artist--in fact, he went so far as to BURN all of his sketches and exercises so that people believed his talent was practically divine.

    But he worked and worked hard to get there and he didn't get commissioned to paint ANYTHING because he railed against "the man" every time he met someone.

    Of course, Mat, comparing oneself to Michelangelo is obviously going to bring highly critical ears to one's work. You, at this stage, don't need to set yourself up for a bad reputation, which you already seem to have, according to Nathan, on one of the largest gamedevelopment communities on the Internet.

    Be careful buddy and submit to humility from time to time in order to better yourself.

    Cheers,
     
  3. AnthemAudio

    Original Member

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    I fought adding anything to this, first thinking I should mention that a musicians post isn't necessarily looking for any feedback so any and all messages from other critical composers should have been handled via PM, but after reading through everything and realizing I could add nothing that hasn't been said have retreated to submitting one forum-based, inside-joke of a zinger...

    "I bet the JForce guys could use a composer."

    (JFizzle, this is your cue!!!)
     
  4. nsmadsen

    nsmadsen New Member

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    I completely agree with this. The only reason why I posted my first response via the forums instead of via a PM was because I thought this could serve as an educational tool for Matt and the rest of the forum on how to network and promote one's self.

    It was never my intention to turn this into a "bash Matt" thread- however I found myself getting more and more irritated, frustrated and (sometimes) insulted by Matt's responses to me and/or to others.

    It was my initial hope that my first response would just serve as a guide to those new to art of networking and promoting. I continued to remark publicly because

    1) The can was already open and both Matt as well as the forum were already going back and forth publicly,

    and

    2) I believe that some of Matt's claims are rather inflated or false. Do I have definitive proof? No. However, given all of the details and the full situation I have the suspicion that some of his claims are inflated if not false,

    and

    3) I probably got a bit emotional as well. I don't appreciate the manner in which Matt associates with other composers. I don't feel that his impression of himself, or his work, is proper or accurate. I don't like to be called a "hack" or "dead academic". Did he call me this directly in this thread? No. But he seems to make a habit of lumping everyone else in one large pile- then putting only himself in the other category. There is no need for that.

    We all want to get jobs and make a name for ourselves. That's a given. However, I feel that its important that we look out for each other and ensure that our community of composers/sound designers are representing ourselves accurately and truthfully. I work very hard to represent and promote myself accurately. I put all of my credentials out there, list my services and applications that I can work on in an effort to show a clear picture of me. I've worked for clients from all over: Russia, Germany and all over the US. Yet I do not market myself as an international figure in this industry. I don't feel that is realistic or truthful about my stature.

    I don't make a habit of calling someone out, or bashing people. I don't really enjoy it and try my hardest to encourage and educate others when I can. However, in this specific situation, given Matt's responses, claims and history of making other large claims- I wanted to step in. I challenged a group of claims that seems rather unlikely. If I'm proven wrong, my sincerest apologies. If I over stepped my bounds, I apologize. I had the best intentions in mind.

    The key issue for everyone to take away from this is: Market and promote yourself effectively. Do we need to insult Matt? No. Do we need to run him off? No. I do think we need to show him (probably privately as you indicated Tony) how to make a better impression and impact on the community. The issue with Matt is I have contacted him privately in the past and I'm always either blown off or lectured about how wrong I am about the industry, music and (sometimes) life in general. So he doesn't seem to be listening when contacted privately. Maybe an "intervention" of this nature would get better results.

    After all, Sean is exactly right: Several of us work for in-house studios and are looking to hire folks. I'm in that situation and have already reached out to someone based on how he interacted with others in the forums I frequented as well as the quality of his work.

    Thanks,

    Nathan
     
    #24 nsmadsen, Oct 24, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2008
  5. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Now that's GOOD! :D
     
  6. matmilne

    matmilne New Member

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    I will accept any and all criticism from any and all artists, and any and all people. if i choose to take your advice that's great, if i choose to ignore it, that's my right.
    Critics bash away, it's what you're paid for.

    andrew, yes you catch on fast, frankly i'm not sure i belong in this time, but i'm here so we'll see.
    waverider, eww but thanks, you have a vivid imagination.
    chillypacman not a chance, i have my hearing so i can't write good music, feel free to mock away.
    sean you're wise, but you've gotton comfortable on the bench. The ingredients burnt to the bottom the last time somebody forgot to stir, if one of us doesn't make a challenge and distract em so we can wash the pot out, it'll all burn again. there are a lot of fresh ingredients on the way, the time to act to get them in to make their soup will pass quickly, which is what the burnt stuff's hoping for. the other ingredients won't survive the mould growth if that water ain't forthcoming.

    the rest, you're entitled to your opinion. i like a free and honest exchange of views, it's lively.
     
    #26 matmilne, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  7. Jesse Hopkins

    Jesse Hopkins New Member

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    -----------
     
    #27 Jesse Hopkins, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  8. matmilne

    matmilne New Member

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    yes, it's one of the nicer things about scoring for film too, with directors taking years to complete one film, it being their life's work really, it's a privalege to be involved. Oh sure you can have just about as opposite views on everything as you can have, actors especially, it's one of the reasons they hire you, but working through that vision and arriving at the right score which is a combination of their work and yours, it's a real creative journey. and yea, more often that not resources are tight and when they're not even able to pay themselves a salary cause it's going on other things, i don't put in a bill until long after release, assuming it earns back its cost (no point in putting people into debt or running companies into the ground especially if they'll make another great project in the future you can work with.)

    thanks jesse
     
  9. nsmadsen

    nsmadsen New Member

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    Matt-

    I think most of the posts here are not trying to bash you. A few are, but most are trying to help you see errors in the ways you've been promoting yourself. I've already explained my motives and intentions clearly, so I'll not rehash that again in this post. I did have two points that I don't think anybody has touched on yet:

    This is a great goal to have! I commend your passion and drive. However, I don't think you're chasing after this dream in the right way. Here's what I mean:

    The type of project you're going after is either a triple AAA ranked title, or that rare indy title by a truly remarkable team. There are plenty of triple AAA ranked titles that get made. You're not just wanting to work for one of those titles. You're wanting the project(s) that change the industry, make a huge impact and become fixtures in the minds of developers and players for years to come. Something like FF7, GTA 4, The Legend of Zelda, Super Mario Bros. and so on.

    If an indy team makes a classic gem that changes the entire industry- it is a rare (but awesome!) event. Even those teams have certain expectations. They may have smaller funding, or smaller teams but they want to know you can handle anything they'll throw at you.

    Both of these types of projects only hire the best of the best (or at least the best they can afford and find). It isn't easy to jump onto one of these crews. So when you refuse to list your credentials, when you write posts that are full of poor grammar and capitalization and structure and when you make outrageous claims that you don't back up with any kind of proof- this doesn't help set you on the right path for your goal.

    I love that you dream big! Keep it up! But you also have to give yourself the best chances to reach that dream. These kinds of projects don't just hire anybody. They want to make sure everyone they hire is the best fit for their team, project and needs. They want to make sure that the quality of assets created are second to none. They want to make sure whoever they put their trust into has done this before.

    Which brings me to my second point:

    If all of your credentials are true, it still doesn't show any experience on any video game projects. Writing for film and TV is vastly different from writing for video games. I've done both, as have many of the other composers here. They can vouch for this statement.

    Do you have any experience writing for games? Have you done PC games or any console games? Do you know how to make music tracks that loop? Do you know how to make interactive music? Do you know about the different audio engines (Open AL, Fmod, Miles, Wwise, etc)?

    If so, you haven't listed any of this from what I've read. The kinds of projects you're aiming for have all of these skills and knowledge as requirements. You can't even get into the door without them. (Side note: If you did apply for a job and sent them your soundclick page, they'd probably skip over you right away. It just doesn't come off as professional enough for those kinds of teams. This is why I continue to urge you to create a custom website to promote yourself.)

    You seem very determined to go your own way, blaze your own path. While I admire that about you, I do have to caution you:

    The video games industry is a business. As such, there is a certain amount of professionalism and behavior expected. Yes we're much more casual than other industries, but at the end of the day we're still a business. As much as you hate to conform, it might serve you best to consider conforming just a bit here and there. I think you'll find you'll get much better results than before.

    Thanks,

    Nathan
     
    #29 nsmadsen, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  10. matmilne

    matmilne New Member

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    "As much as you hate to conform, it might serve you best to consider conforming "

    really. that's great advice, i'll just go do that right now. now where did i put my hammer and sycle, perhaps i left it in the berlin exhibition of degenerate art, hey tardis! blast why do they always fly past when i raise my hand. hello george the third, i'd like to report a missing colonist.....need i go on, please say yes.
     
  11. nsmadsen

    nsmadsen New Member

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    Well I can see I just wasted alot of time writing that last post. (sigh) Perhaps some of the other young(er) composer-sound designers trying to break into this industry got something from it because it's clear Matt didn't.

    You get respect by giving respect.

    Update: Matt's done this kind of thing before. All you have to do is google "internationally renowned composer Matt Milne" and then click on the first link. You'll find a year old thread where many of the same pointers and advice were given. Matt didn't listen then just like he didn't listen now. To each their own.

    Pay careful attention to his claim:

    Without any proof, no one can confirm the validity of this claim.... like most of his claims it seems.
     
    #31 nsmadsen, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  12. AnthemAudio

    Original Member

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    Ultimately the guy is just gambling. He may get lucky, he may not. We all take calculated risks getting our career up and going.

    I agree with Jesse's sentiments about indie games, I have a passion for them and will reduce rates, accept royalties and all that other bad stuff you shouldn't do just to work on some funky stuff that tickles me. I hate it when a project is doomed to failure just because of something like money for art so sometimes I take a hit if I can. In that way, I'm like Matt following inspiration versus compensation. I've been lucky to snag an awesome job full time doing what I love and getting paid well for it so it's easier for me to make the decision and "take one for the team" so that a worthy project (at least in my esteem) gets off the ground and gets out there. I think people respect me here for that as I'm not just a "sound dude" who pops in to sell his services. I've been very fortunate to work very closely with Chronic Logic on a number of projects that I'm very passionate about and continue to support years after they finish (did y'all know there's a new version of Kingdom Elemental out with a bunch of levels designed by me?).

    All I'm really saying is there's ways of finding that awesome collaborative project that you believe in without being so forward, brash and divisive. Strong...yes, confident...definitely, skilled...it helps. Don't be too afraid of the word "conform", yeah it puts me off initially too. Put it in terms of...you would be "conforming" to get a personal website that better shows off your work and who you are rather than just a soundclick page (which I started out with too!), you would be "conforming" by trying your hand at a not-so monumental game and getting your feet wet with the ins and outs of game dev (which is not like film or tv).

    Still, you do it how you want. Some bet on one horse and some bet on multiple horses. I hope you win the race someday!

    Quick time capsule review of your music (since you are open to it in this thread)...

    "meh..."

    There is some potentially great stuff to work on in there though and I think with time, patience, and tenacity you'll eventually get the results you want. I'm not an orchestral composer (prefer smaller ensembles when I do) so that may not mean much to you, but I review a TON of AAA soundtracks (and some lesser knowns from time to time) so I get to hear it all. You've got some work, but I don't think that's your problem.

    Thanks for the lively debate!

    -Tony
     
  13. amilcojazz

    Original Member

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    Fancy that.....a royal rumble of....composers:D

    I'm a newbie....maybe that's the reason I don't think all the fire of this thread.....I just think: many styles, many services, a simple but complete site, many demos, knowledge of the typical problems of the developers about music and sfx, to hear the suggests of people with experience into thsi field....nothing else....this is only industry...what are you looking for? they have to choose me not I have to choose them...
     
    #33 amilcojazz, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  14. dannthr

    dannthr New Member

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    I think Nathan brings up a really great point, Mat:

    Can you explicate your knowledge of creating non-linear music, loopable music, and/or interactive music?

    Or will the developers also have to hire a music supervisor to facilitate your assets and implement them into the game themselves?


    If you have experience with interactive/non-linear composition, I would put that in your first post before any ideological rants.
     
  15. Sean Beeson

    Original Member

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    I am on the bench? I am your age just so you know :)

    I just don't think that trolling people is the way to gain connections in the business hehe. But be it far from me to say, after all I am just a washed up, burnt-on-the-bottom ingredient...[/QUOTE]
     
  16. nsmadsen

    nsmadsen New Member

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    Sean Beeson is one of the most respected composers in both:

    [a] The age bracket he's in

    and

    The circle of composers I interact with daily. (Keep in mind it's a pretty big circle.)

    His music is incredible, his production and mixing abilities are top-notch and is quickly making a major name for himself. So a bit of temperament and buffer in what you say might go a long way Matt. You're not helping your cause or reputation at all.
     
  17. Dan Rogers

    Dan Rogers New Member

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    This thread made me giggle. Thank you...seriously, all of you.
     
  18. justinwasack

    justinwasack New Member

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    Wow, the OP has such great metaphors. I mean I think they are great. My brain can't handle such talented and creative uses of words in sentences.

    Is he a poet or or a composer? BOTH I SAY!!!

    Next poster to use a big word wins!

    This post makes my skull hurt.
     
    #38 justinwasack, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  19. nsmadsen

    nsmadsen New Member

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    Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanokoniosis
     
  20. justinwasack

    justinwasack New Member

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    seriously my brain just blew a gasket. :confused:
     

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