I like you people

Discussion in 'Indie Related Chat' started by cliffski, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. defanual

    Original Member

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    After reading a little further, looks like it's unproven either way and views somewhat mixed further on. In my opinion, you have to be careful in forums and debates sometimes and just turn the other cheek (agree to disagree), be it because no one agrees or your misunderstood. That usually helps avoid the backlash of semi-flamery/insults!

    I've experience the exact same thing in the past (and I didn't even swear once:eek: ), and I got pretty pissed too, but I learned from then that things are easily confused, misunderstood and grow out of context easily, opinions are dangerous and worth nothing sometimes, so when I see the signs, I just turn the other way and say "fair enough" or "forget it" or even "perhaps your right:)", it doesn't mean I've lost, won or I'm wrong or right, it just means I'm reading the situation and diffusing it quickly

    @ionside: Forgive me in advance, but I don't get it:confused: , is that meant to be in reference to cliffski (and some others) colourful language in the thread or what?:)
     
  2. ionside

    ionside New Member

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    defanual - More to do with people getting under each others skin. But after reading your most recent post, I tend to agree it's more along what you described.
     
  3. Reactor

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    On a side note Cliffski, I enjoyed discussing piracy with you there on Blues (Fallout demo thread also) with the guy who said that indies don't whine about it. When you rocked up, I laughed heartily ;) Of course, that was until I was accused of being a paranoid publisher by a supposedly fellow indie, simply because I dislike piracy.

    That was annoying.
     
  4. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    ===================================
     
    #24 cliffski, Apr 23, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2008
  5. GeneralGrant

    GeneralGrant New Member

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    If the game I’m working on sold 6 million copies I would make my annual salary in royalty bonus but I would still trade it all for the chance to do the game of my dreams. Too bad I need that kind of bonus money to make the jump. :)
     
  6. KNau

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    You must work at a generous studio. The last bonuses I saw passed around were only a couple grand for a multi-million selling game. Certainly, not enough to change your tax bracket.

    As much as I loathe the casual space it's also worth pointing out that last November Mystery Case Files: Ravenhurst was the 3rd best selling PC title in the US. And Madame Fate sold over 100,000 copies in it's first 6 weeks of release, an impressive number for any PC release, including so-called "AAA".
     
  7. GeneralGrant

    GeneralGrant New Member

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    Yeah, it’s a pretty cool studio. Sales royalty is part of the employee retention plan and the percentage was recently doubled. Still, for me it has the opposite effect giving me the financial means to leave sooner. D'oh! :)
     
  8. Sysiphus

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    This is one of the places were more people is coming from working with a salary in videogame companies. I did for several, and it's highly overrated. In a way, all the crazy stuff needed to make a great casual game, is more complex/risky. And requires...what it requires.
     
  9. Hiro_Antagonist

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    You know, it's funny. I haven't posted here in many months, even though I used to spend an hour or so here every day, often more, for a couple of years. I went to the indie meet-ups, talked to a lot of people off the board, and was a very active member of this community.

    For the record, while most people here are super cool and have good heads on their shoulders, I stopped posting here specifically because there are certain outspoken and limited-perspective people in the community who tend to shout so loud about their opinions that they drown out actual discussion and rationality. That's not meant as a personal slam against anyone in particular -- I don't remember in the slightest who the specific people who chased me away. But my point is that as much as I loved this community, this is also an imperfect community with some bad seeds that chased me away from what I considered to be one of my homes. This is not a utopia.

    Anyway -- I participated in the thread that Cliffski quotes at the top of this thread. And for what it's worth, in good faith, I feel that quote was out of context, and after some equally inappropriate behavior on Cliffski's part. My interpretation of the post that was quoted was that person tongue-in-cheek being as big a jerk as he perceived Cliffski to be. It's far from the case that Cliffski just walked onto the playground and some bully shouted that at him like he'd have you believe.

    Also, anyone who's so busy raging against the machine and making wildly generalized statements like 'wage slave' and 'exploit his labour for a profit' and all the other anti-establishment hyperbole needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. By that logic, anybody who has a day job is a sell-out, despite how invested they are in their work or how many people they reach with their talent. It's inaccurate, disingenuous, and just plain silly. IMO, anyone who truly values fairness and perspective and truth would never talk llike that.

    Stuff like this whole episode, both here and on the other forums, gives indies a bad name. I find it disappointing that Cliffski turned this into an "Indies vs The Man" issue when it needed to be nothing of the sort. And I find it pretty sad that Cliffski had to run here after getting into a pissing match that he played a very real and very large role in escallating just to start a thread about how those big mean corporate folk on the other forums picked on him.
     
  10. cliffski

    Moderator Original Member

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    yeah whatever. I was totally evil to mention game demos. read the thread and see who starts getting insulting and arrogant first.
    clue: its not me.

    Like I fucking give a shit what people I never met think of me.
     
  11. RyanB

    RyanB New Member

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    Begin the morning by saying to thyself, I shall meet with the busy-body, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the nature of the good that it is beautiful, and of the bad that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to me, not only of the same blood or seed, but that it participates in the same intelligence and the same portion of the divinity, I can neither be injured by any of them, for no one can fix on me what is ugly, nor can I be angry with my kinsman, nor hate him, For we are made for co-operation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth. To act against one another then is contrary to nature; and it is acting against one another to be vexed and to turn away.

    - Marcus Aurelius
     
  12. Hiro_Antagonist

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    Actually, I did read the thread. Like I said, I was there, and you know that full well.

    And my honest assessment is that you copped a hostile and arrogant attitude first. Obviously you disagree, and maybe you didn't mean your comments that way. But that was my perception, and I'm sure it was the perception of others. Which may explain why the thread turned south in what may seem like a 'you vs. everyone else' way.

    And I would hope you do "fucking give a shit" what people think of you. I assume you value your credibility in the various communities you participate in. And right now, I think you are doing serious damage to that credibility.

    I strongly encourage you to think about that. You can flame me if you want, but in good faith, I seriously think it would do you good to think about how you're coming across to the vast majority of people who are reading but haven't participated in either of these discussions. Certainly you're not the only person who's made themselves look bad in all this nonsense. But I do honestly think you're still digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, and there's just no value in it.

    Rather than cussing at everyone and feeling like it's you vs the world, just chalk this up as one of those stupid misunderstood forum flame-ups that most people have at least once, and I encourage you to adopt a more rational debating style in the future -- even in the face of people who are being asses to you. Because, in all seriousness, I do think the public perception of you personally can affect sales and opportunities in the future.

    Imagine if Derek Smart had consistantly come across as rational, personable, and tolerant, even when he shared viewpoints that went against the grain. I think he's an unfortunate case where, accurate or not, his image really works against him. And I'm betting he'd ultimately have more dollars in his pocket, and more players/respect for his games, if he came across differently over the years.
     
  13. Jesse Hopkins

    Jesse Hopkins New Member

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    #33 Jesse Hopkins, Apr 23, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  14. cliffski

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    Yeah whatever, I really don't care. But one thing I have learned is not to bother trying to discuss anything on the internet with people I don't know.
    Thanks for the advice, but I have decided just not to bother with anyone online. Its more trouble than its worth.
    Think of me what you like.
     
  15. Desktop Gaming

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Oi! Some of us are normal! That's a slur against the rest of us! :p

    See, that's how the internet gets full of nothing but idiots. All the 'normal' people get fed up of taking crap. I suggest going about your business as normal, paying no heed to horrible little trolls.
     
  16. Sysiphus

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    No...With all my respects, and not trying to fight or anything, but I don't agree in a single bit, sorry. I've been really long time reading cliff's threads. Talked, etc. And even more, he brought a point which is very certain in a big percentage of cases in the industry. I've heard such amount of incredible bad talking about indy developers while being inside those companies that... We can try to think we don't see or hear it, but lol...
     
  17. Spore Man

    Indie Author

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    His reputation is the only reason I recognize that name. Otherwise he'd be as obscure as any other developer. ;)

    .
     
  18. Game Producer

    Moderator Original Member

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    Well.... who cares what anybody says as long as there's beer.

    Right?

    :p
     
  19. ionside

    ionside New Member

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    I keep hearing about beer, but I haven't felt the touch of sweet nectar upon my lips yet. :(
     
  20. Teeth

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    ugh, quarter-to-three? ditch that shit off your bookmarks cliffski! for serios yo
     

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