I don't get "You Have to Bur the Rope"!!!

Discussion in 'Indie Related Chat' started by CousinGilgamesh, Jan 12, 2009.

  1. OremLK

    Indie Author

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    Yeah, I didn't know you had to pay. If this was a competition for fiction writing, that would almost automatically mark the contest as a scam.
     
  2. jefferytitan

    Original Member

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    As many people said, I found it amusing and to the point about some games I've seen. However as amusing as it may be, it doesn't teach anything that can be applied to general games. It's a piece of cotton candy, not a meal.
     
  3. gmcbay

    Indie Author

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    The funniest thing about YHTBTR being nominated for "innovation" is that the real meat of the "game" is the very meta theme song that plays at the end, and what's innovative about that? Portal did it first (and MUCH better, and in the context of a real game that was really innovative).



    IGF fail. huge, massive fail.
     
  4. simonc

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    I came on this thread a little late, and I'm not really sure I want to comment, given the amount of vitriol being leveled at the IGF here, but I thought I should try.

    Firstly, the Innovation category is new this year, and we explained it like this when we announced the awards in July: "This new award is intended to honor abstract, shortform, and unconventional game development, allowing more esoteric ‘art games’ to compete on their own terms alongside longer-form indie titles."

    We care about the indie community a lot, and I'm upset that one controversial game choice is overshadowing what are a lot of other high quality titles.

    This category (one of many, incidentally) is deliberately intended to highlight some of the shorter, more experimental titles that aren't always thought of as conventional games, but seem to be important in moving games forward or making us think about what games are.

    Maybe 'You Have To Burn The Rope' is a controversial choice. Maybe this speaks to rampant controversy what about innovation is - if anything, the game is conceptually innovative, not innovative in terms of gameplay, certainly. But the judges - who are smart folks, incidentally - voted for the game, and that's how it was this year.

    Given the community feedback about this particular award, we'll certainly be looking at it - what this award means, and who should be eligible for it - again for next year. But we stand by it, and it's a finalist fair and square.

    By all means hate on us for it, but we go to a tremendous amount of trouble to run IGF and promote indie games yearly - I personally spent probably hundreds of hours of my spare time playing through and helping to judge the over 400 IGF entries this year, for one example - so I hope you'll respect that too.

    Regards,
    Simon
    [IGF Chairman.]
     
  5. MFS

    MFS New Member

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    I understand where you are coming from, however, at best, I think the category is ill named. Your description of 'innovation' doesn't fit with what I consider to be 'innovative' and apparently a lot of other people. In that case, an award to showcase 'art house' games is fine, but should be labeled clearly as such. And I think Innovation should stay around as well, but I've seen many indie games this past year that should crush YHTBTR in a more accurate perspective of the category.

    Esoteric does not equal innovative...

    Just my humble thoughts, of course :D

    P.S. I do appreciate the massive effort IGF makes!
     
  6. gmcbay

    Indie Author

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    Next year, maybe consider having the judges write up a justification for picks. Not every judge for every game they pick, but from each finalist have at least one judge that feels strongly about why a specific finalist should have made it write up something about it. If the IGF wants to be taken seriously they need to offer not just a list of picks out of context, but some actual written criticism that justifies why these games are supposedly important. If a bunch of arty movie critics chose some 30 second YouTube parody video about the current state of movies as the finalist for a serious film festival they'd be laughed out of the room if they didn't have a seriously well-constructed defense of their pick. Why should the IGF be taken seriously if the judges won't justify their controversial picks?

    Please justify that statement. I'd LOVE to read a justification for YHTBTR being innovative in any way even conceptually.

    For the record, I haven't ever submitted a game to the IGF so this has nothing to do with me feeling wronged as perhaps others in this thread do, I just don't see a single innovative thing in the game and I'm completely confused as to what the innovation is supposed to be -- the presumed comment on the dumbing down of games? Been done, quite a few times, been done better. The funny meta theme song at the end? Been done, been done better. What's left? The substandard (even by Flash game) platformer mechanics?
     
  7. simonc

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    Fair comment, gmcbay - there are judge comments for most of the games, and so we might try making those public for finalists for next year - or at least edited highlights that pertain to whatever competition they're a finalist for.
     
  8. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    In my opinion it doesn't do any of those though.

    I think you'd see less controversy if the competition was free to enter. I'd feel incredibly cheated if I'd paid money to enter with a game that I thought was truly innovative only to see YHTBTR in there.
     
  9. ChrisP

    Indie Author

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    That's the crux of my unease about the decision too.

    However, I do see where you and the other judges are coming from, Simon, and I do appreciate the IGF's efforts. It's not all hatin' going down in this thread!

    I agree with MFS that the category isn't entirely appropriately named given its intent - I'd been having some similar thoughts. Perhaps next year we could look forward to an "Experimental" category instead? :)
     
  10. Jamie W

    Original Member Indie Author

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    Have to agree with you Chris.

    If you compare the skill, time, energy, love, that has gone in to the making of some games submitted by people here ... to the rope game ...

    The message seems to be ... make something in 24 hours that's basically a pile of pooh ... and we'll reward you for it.
     
  11. 320x240

    320x240 New Member

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    There's nothing controversial about a bad choice.
     
  12. hddnobjcttmmngmntmtch3rlz

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    I think having an entrance fee helps to prevent a complete onslaught of random stuff. I've participated in plenty of non-gaming related contests where there is an entrance fee.
     
    #72 hddnobjcttmmngmntmtch3rlz, Jan 20, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  13. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I don't mind an entry fee as a barrier to entry but $95 is quite a lot to pay with no guarantee of any coverage at all. Unless you're a finalist what have you got for your $95?
     
  14. turbo

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    It's about more than just the innovation category.

    There should be categories for WIP, completed/released, 2d casual, 3d epic/hardcore, web, artsy fartsy, joke etc.

    Also a couple of the judges publicly showed their preferences for specific 2d style games in articles on the web. Totally biased.

    My money won't be wasted there again, or my time.

    We have to wonder if we will see anything for it, eg, the evaluation we're supposed to get by email. Will it be sincere and a proper effort or will it be like hated homework.

    The hits are minimal from the site too, in comparison. Our own domains far surpass the referring sites in our awestats.

    </end rant>
     
  15. Spore Man

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    Rename the category to "esoteric/art games" if that's what its purpose was.
     
  16. andrew

    andrew New Member

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    Ok, yeah, the fact that a joke game like YHTBTR was nominated boggles the mind. If that's innovative, then so are Penny Arcade cartoons and Newground mashups.

    However many of those other games in the category are actually worthy of the "innovative" title: Between, Coil (although Aether might have been a better pick?), Mightier..

    - andrew
     
  17. hddnobjcttmmngmntmtch3rlz

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    Has anyone checked to make sure no one there put it on the list as a joke?
     
  18. Rickard

    Rickard New Member

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    Don't really want to get into the debate, but since i've followed it now;

    How about making a "Wild Card" category, where any type of game like creation could enter, based on any feature. There would be no entry fee (and no way of entering or suggesting games either), and possibly no award either, except for the extra attention.
    The idea being that games that have simply stirred up enough attention over the year would be known to the judges at the time of the nominations. This way they could get the recognition they (might) deserve, without competing with the "real" games out there.

    My 2 cents

    Rickard
     
  19. ChrisP

    Indie Author

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    I now find myself in the unexpected position of wanting to defend the IGF.

    Why shouldn't there be a category for odd experimental/artsy/post-modern games? And since there is, why shouldn't You Have to Burn the Rope be in it? You don't have to like it to admit that it certainly fits the criteria better than most games.

    Let's face it, nobody who entered a "real" game (like you guys) would have had any chance in such a category, because your games aren't weird artsy ones. So it's not like YHTBTR has pushed out any other games that were more worthy of inclusion. It's not being elevated "above" any of the real games. It's simply in a different category. You can't enter a dog into a pet show and then complain when the Best Cat in Show category was won by an inferior cat (pfaugh!), which your dog is clearly superior to. (Because everyone knows dogs are just plain better than cats.) Your dog simply wasn't in line for Best Cat in Show. Yes, it totally sucks that you didn't win Best Dog in Show, but don't channel your disappointment over that into anger about the Best Cat award.

    It's true that the name of the category was totally misleading with regard to its purpose, as I mentioned earlier; but that's not a mistake worth flaming the organisers about.



    P.S. The entrance fee is completely necessary - imagine how much chaff the judges would have to wade through otherwise.
     
  20. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Then they should call the category that and not innovation. There's a world of difference between the two.
     

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