I detect a shit/fan interface...[Apple requires apps be written in C ]

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by princec, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. Adrian Lopez

    Original Member

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    Perhaps not. After all, it's easier to do a half-assed job when it takes extra work than when it takes less work.

    Portability involves more than just the language, you know.


    I'm willing to bet the number of crappy native apps far exceeds the number of Flash CS5 apps available through the App Store.
     
  2. hippocoder

    Indie Author

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    I think you're just arguing for the sake of it to be honest and you seem to be trolling and talking down to me when I've clearly tried to just put my view out there for discussion.

    Have fun.
     
  3. Bad Sector

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    Its easier to troll than learn C :p
     
  4. Stefan Maton

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    Now this is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. The only thing that will raise when you have to PORT it manually is the amount of work you have to do as a developer. AND the quality will SUFFER because being an indie developer I never can manage to know all the does and don't of all the different platforms. Not being able to develop for different platforms in the same time will PREVENT further income which could stabilize my current situation as an indie developer.

    Even as an indie developer you only have so much time and so much money to spend on the current title you're working on. The number of developers who actually can PAY additional programmers to handle cross-platform issues can be counted on one hand. Why do you think the old fashioned mobile phone developers failed? Because they had to MANUALLY port and adopt their games to every single mobile phone. Some (richer) developers had up to 150 different mobile phones to test their games against.

    As an developer I struggled several year between creating my own gaming engine, keeping it cross-platform AND trying to make my own game. I finally surrendered to the fact that I cannot do all that all together and I better focus on doing one thing (making games) using a 3rd party middle ware that handles the cross-platform issues for me than not doing any games at all!
     
  5. Adrian Lopez

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    If you don't like what I have to say in response to your posts, that means I'm trolling?
     
  6. Adrian Lopez

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    I already know C, so I guess all that's left to do is go trolling?
     
  7. Bad Sector

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    I was around there then and J2ME was (and still is, its not like its dead or anything) a pain to work with. But this discussion isn't about porting between 2394923 different platforms but about porting between two or three platforms. Surely an indie can manage that, assuming he knows what he's doing. If not, he better learn. Its not rocket science to write code that has a common backend and different frontends for each platform. And for games its much easier than for normal apps which have to implement different UIs. The worst case is that you'll have to think about controls. But guess what: unless you planned to make some mediocre "lowest common denominator" game, you would need to think about that anyway.

    Today at least you CAN use C or C++ to make phone games. A few years ago you had to use Java and not too long ago you couldn't program your phones. Even iPhone began without an SDK. Would you prefer that?

    I'm sure that if you finished your engine you would find that making a game is harder than making an engine and even then you would still have your engine ready to use with iPhone.
     
  8. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    But the whole point of this is that there isn't a single good reason for Apple to limit it.
     
  9. Adrian Lopez

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    The less time you spend working on your engine the more time you have to work on your game. Sometimes you have no choice but to develop your own engine, but sometimes they take away your choice for no good reason.
     
  10. Stefan Maton

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    I fully agree with this: You have to plan your game for the different platforms to adapt them to their specific needs. BUT that's different from having to adapt your underlying technology to different platform specific APIs.

    No. I would prefer to keep the iPhone platform as "open" as it was before. The client decides which games and applications he wants to buy. If a game has been developed keeping cross-platform in mind, this doesn't mean that the game is bad. It does mean that the developer has the chance to distribute it on different platforms. BUT having to handle different APIs on different platforms is a PITA. Been there, done that. That's not what I need.

    It's the competition that filters the good from the bad. I give a cr** about some CS5 beta stuff that only has 15 FPS if it could have 60 FPS when written with the iPhone API. Perhaps the game doesn't need any 60 FPS? If it needs much higher FPS and it doesn't produce it, the game won't sell. It's as easy as that.


    Don't try to get me on that foot. This sentence just made me laugh. Just believe me when I say that I know what I'm talking about...
     
  11. potan

    potan New Member

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    if all these rules take place in the future, i guess now it will take me at least 3-5 months before i can see my fully animated 3d model on iphone.
    (instead of couple minutes and let Unity do all the job for me ).

    oh not counting the audio support, physics & particle system,
    should we write all those by ourselves too... Awesome !!
    I can see this will be a fun experience.

    well... at least that will make some people happy, because the "Barrier of Entry" is surely quite High :D
     
  12. hippocoder

    Indie Author

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    Alright I'll bite and reply yet again!

    I have no problem with opinion but you're not adding anything to the discussion, you're just repeating that you disagree with me on a constant basis. Originally you couldn't post on indiegamer (well, steve p's old site) - without contributing something new. Yes I was around back then, but lost my login details :)

    You already made your stance clear much earlier in the thread.

    Not quite. My argument in favour of Apple's new rule isn't that competition will out the best, its that saturating the market with 15fps shovelware apps will quickly throw your title to the bottom of the list - it won't even have a chance to get played let alone compete.

    I'm not saying Apple is right or perfect. I think there's a lot wrong with the app store. I'm upset that a great quality app won't even get played. You need to get "featured" by apple or your app is likely to get lost among the shovelware before it has a chance due to the flawed app submission process.

    I am hoping that this is the first move they do: limit the damage.

    I am hoping the second move is that they reject apps based on quality of user experience.

    Apple is a closed platform, the users have every right to demand something in return for it being closed: a higher quality experience... So far I'm still waiting for that to happen on the iPhone in all honesty!
     
  13. Adrian Lopez

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    Perhaps that's how you choose to read it, but empty disagreement is certainly not my intent. I think if you pay a little closer attention you'll notice my replies are intended to address particular shortcomings in your various statements.
     
  14. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Flash is a desktop browser environment.

    If you want to write games that can be made cross platform, it's about the worse choice you can make for a place to start, so get over it.

    Complaining that a flash game won't run on the iPhone is akin to complaining that a DS game won't run on a Sky+ set-top box.
     
  15. Adrian Lopez

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    That doesn't mean it can only be used as part of a desktop browser.

    Except that Flash CS5 games could in fact run on the iPhone until Apple decided they shouldn't.
     
  16. hippocoder

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    Flash would have killed the iphone dead. It barely runs well on desktops let alone mobile devices.
     
  17. Bad Sector

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    Nobody said you have to do it by yourself. You can license an engine in C from some other developer or use one which is available. Personally i've bought a couple of FPS games which use the Wolf3D and Doom engines which are open source.

    If Apple doesn't change their TOS, i believe that what the Unity3D guys might do (if they still want to support the iPhone) is make their engine work directly with C/C++/Objective-C (ie no C# -> native compilation).
     
  18. Adrian Lopez

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    An app performing so badly that it would render the iPhone useless would certainly be a good reason to keep it away from the App Store, but that's not what Apple is doing. Bringing up performance issues is just a way to rationalize Apple's anti-competitive behavior as being something more palatable than it actually is.
     
  19. chillypacman

    chillypacman Guest

    The barrier entry can be near impossible, it won't discourage people from coding for the iPhone but it will disadvantage them.
    Banning third party APIs, which many best selling iPhone apps rely on, will only increase the number of poor apps.
    The app store has a rating system, good apps get rated higher than bad ones, so believe it or not your apps have always competed based on quality. More to the point: You're talking out of your ass and making assumptions which defy human logic and history and why? Because Steve Jobs said so, then it must be true!

    You're making one of the dumbest self contradicting arguments here: 'geewizz, people will see flash running better on a cheaper phone so they'll buy that instead of the iPhone', well how about this: 'geewizz, people will see Flash running on cheap phones and not at all running on the iPhone'.
    Being a programmer is more than hardwork, it's baout workign smart, using whatever tools you can, apple has just taken away virtually every tool an iPhone developer could ever use and says 'well work hard'. How about Iwork hard on a platform where I'm not restricted in the tools I can use based on the platform holder having a biff with another company I don't give a damn about?

    One question: Are you a programmer? It's hard to tell, either way you're a bit of a fanboy and being a fanboy is a subset of being stupid.

    Your opinions are very poorly thought out and you make some wild claims like Flash killing the iPhone is so ridiculous I can't even lower myself to your level to begin to understand where you're coming from unless you're seriously implying that the iPhone is the perfect OS and any tranish on it would be horrible so much so that people would stop using the iPhone in droves because of flash.

    You also have absolutely NO idea how software development works and how necessary APIs are for decent software development. You talk of the standards being raised for entry level people, your reasoning is assuming only good coders will be able to make iPhone apps now which is a load of shit, anyone can still make iPhone apps, the only difference is they will struggle to make good ones and people who might have otherwise made decent apps will make subpar ones because Apple doens't allow third party APIs.

    Look at the game industry at large, multiplatform game engines are pretty much mandatory for any triple A game developer and oftne times this engine is licensed. Look at Rocksteady, they made one of the best games last gen which rated highly on three platforms and was in effect the same game on three platforms. They used Unreal Engine 3 because it gave them a headstart, they didn't have to focus on low level stuff because th eengine would take care of it, and this is the studio which by your definition is lazy and weak which won many awards last year.
     
    #79 chillypacman, Apr 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2010
  20. Derek5432

    Derek5432 New Member

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    What I can't believe is that Apple seems to also be prohibiting the use of 3rd-party analytics in the new terms.

    All I can say is...there's a new big mobile platform in town, and it's a hell of a lot more developer-friendly. I think there's going to be a huge shift in developer defection to Android over the next couple of years.
     

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