From 0 to 100 in PTK ( bighfish acquires funpause )

Discussion in 'Feedback Requests' started by patrox, Jan 6, 2006.

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  1. Fabio

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    While FunPause is a great example of successful business, I totally disagree with you. If it was really all about money and pragmatism, then I'd just take a gun and go to the local bank or, if I wanted to be even more criminally pragmatical, I'd try to become a politician. :D
    No, while FunPause's goals were probably what they achieved at the end, and big big sincere claps for that, some people here didn't esteem too much the use of the demo/tutorial DAZ out of the box Fairies model, to make an example, and this has nothing to do with envying FunPause success. If it was that I'd have my room filled of posters of Bill Gates, and believe me I don't have any. :eek: If it was just envy for the final result, people like Id Games wouldn't be esteemed like they are. John Carmack is a great coder, period. Could you say that FP games excel in code, or in gfx (DAZ rules, but that's another story). No, although they're certainly not poor in quality, but what they really excel in is business sense and will to power, so to speak.. which is something that contrarily to what you think other people aren't really interested in, although they see the money potential in it.
    So let's not confuse the two things: FunPause deserves big congrats for their business vision, but I think that artistically speaking they won't enter into Valhalla. Just my opinion of course, loading the demo/tutorial of DAZ and rendering it to make it the main character of a game is, some way artistically* speaking, absolutely smart anyway. :D

    *even "to get a successful game out in few weeks" is a form of art IMHO, although not the one I like to focus in, IF I HAVE A CHOICE (if from that depends the fate of my family or company then, I'd make this comprimize 1000 times too, even more than FP did, and would enter into Savant's hell of cloners if from that depended the bread I can give to my family every day.. but I'd never *enjoy* doing so or trying to do it when I'm not in a desperate/survival need of money. If I am wealthy, I'd look for the originality instead, and get into Savant's heaven ;--) ).

    But you can't claim that everyone in the world envies THAT kind of becoming successful, or you're wrongly labeling people in stupid and in smart ones. There are many more colours in the world.
     
  2. Sharpfish

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    That just sums up your attitude. You can only have a discussion if it doesn't involve recognising someone elses success and giving them praise?

    A discussion is cool, but the same old faces once again are taking the intent of posts that ARE praising funpause out of context for their own agendas (see all the "can't see why all these posts are giving congrats")

    We are giving congrats in the same way we do when someone goes top ten or retail release with a game. We know X amount of devs/players hate match3 etc so when a match3 game goes top ten we have to continually drag out the negative side of things?

    I have no problem with the counter discussion here, getting to the underlying issues - what I do have a problem with is people somehow insinuating other people are just brown-nosing.
     
  3. Sharpfish

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    Exactly my point. I am not taking sides I just don't see the point in arguing it until it disolves into yet another flame war/locked thread. It seems typical of the posts these days that you can not get away with giving someone a bit of support without having others debate what you meant, what is best for you to think, what is best for someone else to do...

    and, yeah I'll practice what I preach by not posting in this thread again and getting back to work :)
     
    #123 Sharpfish, Jan 10, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2006
  4. Sharpfish

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    ... at least I'll go after this one ;)

    Agreed. This highlights my point though. Why does any number of the more vocal praise givers in this thread just trying to spread a bit of goodwill and keep things from getting super-serious and depressing *AGAIN* mean that we think the next guy is the same as EMM? Or that they want the same business model?

    I think most people here have said "Congrats to EMM for his success" not "I wish BFG bought me out" or "Damn, I wish I had 'cloned Chuzzle'". It is just a simple "well done" but it always has to be picked apart and ridiculed as if we don't have our own ideals and goals in life.
     
  5. simonh

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    Well said Sharpfish, you've summed up my thoughts exactly.

    Anyway, maybe we can all move on now :)
     
  6. Dan MacDonald

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    As they say in games "Grats on the phat lewt" :p

    Honestly though, after several years of the dexterity / Indiegamer community there's not much left to talk about besides inde values and perspectives.
     
  7. Jack Norton

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    <np don't want to start a flamewar>
     
    #127 Jack Norton, Jan 10, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2006
  8. jankoM

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    damn Jack ... and I so liked your reply ... and just wanted to ad something :cool:
     
  9. tentons

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    Hear, hear!

    There's more cat fighting around here than... well, than in some clever analogy about cat fighting. This thread is 6 or 7 pages long, and a lot of it is arguing about whether or not to congratulate FunPause for doing well for themselves and their families and what a disaster it will be to all life in the universe if we do. The rest of it is bickering about if FunPause is really successful or not. *what the...*

    :eek:

    (Oh, I agree with Sharpfish.)
     
  10. Anthony Flack

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    I don't think the "ideological flamewar" is about what any particular developer did or didn't do, but rather a kind of comment on the way the whole industry is heading. A lot of people took exception to Funpause's strategy at first, as being the most blatant example of "parasitic" game development we'd seen. Now that strategy has been shown to be incredibly lucrative, and everyone decides it's great. So what does that suggest for the future?

    We've already seen most developers become "casual" in the last two or three years (the Titan Attacks thread shows just how uncommon it is to be making the sorts of games we really like anymore) and many people are concerned that the "parasitic casual" strategy is going to get out of hand. It doesn't matter to me what Funpause get up to, because I'm not interested in playing their games anyway, and I doubt that's going to change. But I do care about the industry as a whole, and what all the new developers who may not have chosen their path yet decide to do. So to me, these kinds of discussion are more about looking to the future than dissecting the past.
     
  11. PoV

    PoV
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    Wow, that's the ugliest face I've seen put on the trend in casual game devlopement yet. Wow.
     
  12. Vorax

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    Ditto @ POV

    I feel like casual games are breaking the Indie world apart when I read comments like Anthony's. :(

    You know what - I think it's that this industry has splt personality disorder. We want to make the games we want, but we want to make money as well. If we make the games we want, the money rarely comes - if we make games that make money, we compromise the art.

    There is something fundamentally wrong with an industry that takes retro games loving, hard core playing, computer geek programmers and artists and asks them to make games for soccer moms. We either don't fit the industry we created, or we aren't reaching the right audience.

    :confused:

    PS: Damn you soccer moms for being the best customers! :mad: (sarcastic and serious at the same time)
     
    #132 Vorax, Jan 11, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2006
  13. soniCron

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    There's nothing wrong with it -- it's just young and prohibitively exclusive. It shouldn't take a computer geek to make a solid game (it doesn't take one to make a board or card game). In the future, middleware tools will open the doors to many non-geek types and, through progression, non-geeks will recognize the opportunity to create their own games.

    Were the first filmmakers expressed with such diversity as they are today? Of course not. Only "geeks" that knew how this revolutionary medium worked and how to control it to their advantage were capable of creating movies. Over time, it became easier to create film, and as such, a huge influx of differring ideals entered the scene.

    See, when you've got a huge market of a single type of player, and you only cater to that type (sci-fi, shooter, core), then you further perpetuate the idea that only those kinds of people like games, and only those types of games are entertaining. When you do this, only these types of people are interested in games enough to create their own. And when they do? More core, sci-fi shooters.

    Once the boundaries are broken, many different types of people will find themselves creating games. Until that time, it's important to reach out to people that aren't familiar with, or are uncomfortable around, video gaming.

    You're making the mistake of confusing cloning with reaching non-core markets. Anthony isn't upset that we're reaching soccer moms, he's upset there's so much copycatting. There is nothing wrong with investing yourself in a project that extends beyond your comfort zone. I like to think of that as "building character."

    A truly passionate game designer won't limit himself to a couple of his favorite, tried and true genres, but expand his vision outward to envelope differring ideals and markets. At the very least, he'll try to introduce many of his favorite elements of game design to an unfamiliar audience in a way that they feel comfortable digesting this new-to-them play.

    But, please, don't confuse target markets with being a copycat. They're really birds of a different feather.
     
  14. Vorax

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    I wasn't confusing target markets with clones - what I meant was that the best hope to be successful with the most active (buying) target market is by making them. This is what's causing the tear. If making clones wasn't profitable no one would, but because the biggest audience has basically said, "Yes please more of that..infact I'll take 3", it rips at the fundamental artistry and creates a divide among those that want to stay true to the art, and those that want to have the best chance at making money. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stay true to the art, or making money - but because of the current market environment, they conflict :(
     
  15. soniCron

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    No, they don't. There is no requirement that a casual game must be a clone. It's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Developers make clones because they believe they will sell, and then the top titles on the board are clones. Well, when you've got 1 original title to 10 clones, there's gonna be some skew on the top 10 charts! Same reason there were so many sci-fi/fantasy titles prior to the casual games boom -- everybody assumed the only games that people wanted to play were sci-fi and fantasy games. This has obviously turned out to be completely untrue.

    It's important to recognize why clones sell at all: Familiarity. Nobody likes change, and games are no different. Ironically, however, the human mind needs the nourishment of new experiences. It's important to recognize that it's not that the player doesn't want to try a new game, they want to be able to enjoy it as quickly as possible, with as little negative impact as possible. (The lower the learning curve, the better.) Unfortunately, totally new game mechanics require the player to go through the awkward experience of feeling lost and in unfamiliar surroundings -- they must re-learn the entire thing from scratch.

    On the flip-side, absolutely identical games won't give the player anything new to experience, so they have little interest in continuing. Clones provide both of these essential experiences to the player (familiarity and new experiences), but not without repercussion. A similar game may have different graphics, music, and settings, but they only slightly feed the need for unique experiences. Ideally, the gameplay would be something they are already familiar with in many ways, but different enough that they get that new experience "fix." As such, clones are automatically inferior to a well designed, unique game.

    So, no. There's no requirement for a casual game to be a clone. In fact, it can be an even worse investment than creating an original title! While there were a lot of things I would have done differently with it, I think Rainbow Web is an excellent example of the "right" way to attack a market -- it has plenty of familiarity, without sacrificing a new experience, and this is essential to success.
     
  16. Bmc

    Bmc New Member

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    that's not really true. the casual audience is starving for different types of games, but not many devs are stepping up to the plate.
     
  17. chanon

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    Congratulations Emmanuel!! What a great year 2005 has been for you, you've done so much that year. Hope 2006 is even better for you :D

    (now for some ranting)

    Sometimes I just wish there was a seperate forum site for each of the 2 types here.

    There should be a forum for the business focussed people and one for the artistic and creative expression people.

    That way people wouldn't have to argue about these same "business and money vs. independent sprirt", "clones vs. innovation" at every opportunity.

    People more focussed on making money can visit one forum and get mostly relevant useful information without having to weed their way through philosophical ideals and opinions of people (some of which haven't released any games) all of which just don't help the bottom line. They will be able to talk freely about all the money making opportunities, advice working with portals, advice doing exclusive deals with publishers, the best way to clone games (!!? - just an example, actually maybe there is an "art" to cloning games - look at how much better FunPause's clones are than other clones - business people would love to discuss that, but here the Artistic guys wouldn't be happy with that.) all of which artistic people wouldn't want to see. All of this will make it more bang for the buck (more value received / time spent on forums) for business people.

    At the same time, the more artistic people can visit the other forum and talk about their experiences in creating original games, how to make games fun (which is more important to understand when making original games vs. clones), talk (and/or whine) about the state of the industry. All this without having to read stuff like people congratulating an (ex)independent developer who was just bought by a big company which goes totally against their values (which of course isn't pleasant reading for them).

    It would be immediately obvious when someone is in the wrong forum, and other people would be able to immediately point to the correct one to talk about that.

    I just don't understand how some of you guys justify the time you spend posting here. It's not that just by posting your opinions on this forum that you will be able to change peoples minds about these topics. Their current situation/life experiences/life values will dictate their decisions and what they want in life (not what XXX poster here says). It's just not productive and it doesn't lead to anywhere. Mostly the business people still think that way, and the artistic people also still think that way after every discussion.

    Again if you disagree with that, then there should be an "independent values vs. business" forum, where people like you who want to spend their time each day trying to change other peoples minds (ok some people will say that they aren't trying to change peoples' minds, they just want to "express their views" so..), or express their views on this point can do so.

    Then there will be those people who are interested in business but don't think clones are good for the general industry ... well again, don't think that by just "expressing your views" or "writing essays" about it will change anything. The market is the decider. If they want clones, clones will sell and people will make them. If they are bored of clones then they will stop selling and the people who can make only clones will have to start building new skills. There are probably tons of casual game developers who don't read this forum so you wouldn't achieve anything trying to convince just the people here that "doing clones is bad for the industry". As I said, the market is the decider. And of course not everyone will be making clones so you don't have to be afraid of that happenning (actually I'd be thrilled if every other developer in the world has the capability to make only clones, then I'd be able to be the only original developer and it wouldn't matter if portals don't accept original games anymore cause my website would be the only place for original games)

    I'm not saying clones are good or bad, or being business focussed is good or bad. I'm saying that people can and do make their own decisions about that and it would be nice if we don't have to go through all this all the time.

    So basically ... if there were seperate forums that would be great. If not, then please try not to waste too much of your time (and everyone's elses').
     
    #137 chanon, Jan 11, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2006
  18. Mike Boeh

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    ...time for the lock...
     
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