Double standard for reviews of indie games?

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by Musenik, Apr 15, 2011.

  1. Adrian Lopez

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    A single counterexample is enough to disprove the rule. You don't absolutely need $100,000 to make a game.
     
  2. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Don't remember anyone saying it was a rule. It was one guys opinion. Oddly enough it seems to be shared by everyone making serious money out of game dev, and argued against by people who look like they don't. Take from that what you will.
     
  3. Applewood

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    Mind bending. Because as soon as personal special cases are a factor, it has no real value to anyone else. How old are you please? Should I be making allowances?
     
  4. Applewood

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    I didn't, but since the usual suspects have shown up again, this has become the best entertainment I've had all day. It's truly funny watching you and indin miss every single point I make, presumably deliberately, and then try to score points off me, done in a style that clearly indicates you think you're winning them.
     
  5. Adrian Lopez

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    Bullshit. It has value to those who are working under similar circumstances as well as those who are willing and able to do so.
     
  6. Adrian Lopez

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    Address the argument, not the man. <-- Logic 101
     
  7. Applewood

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    No, that's just you, at least when I say something. You'd argue that black was white if I said otherwise and it just gets old.

    The reason I mention wages is that this forum is about making money doing indie games. If you've made none then I think that's a fair indication that any expressed opinions about income generation are of similar value. Now, if a guy from Zynga comes along in a minute and tells me I'm doing things wrong and he has better answers, I'd bloody well sit up and listen. And that's actually where we differ.
     
  8. Adrian Lopez

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    "You're missing the point" is such a lame excuse. If somebody's missing the point then please make your point more effectively or at least try to justify your claim that we're missing the point.
     
  9. Adrian Lopez

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    It's your right not to listen to non-experts, and listening exclusively to experts is of course a proper strategy if and when you lack the means to determine for yourself whether what someone is saying is true. Your problem is that you do have the means to determine for yourself whether I'm saying something that's true and yet here insist on attacking my credentials instead of my arguments. That's your fault, not mine.
     
  10. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Care to explain how? My special cases will always be different from yours and both will be different from a third guys.

    Let's try this a third way. Here comes a hypothetical, so there's no dodging with "facts":

    If a publisher drops a letter in the post offering to buy your next game out, how much would you accept? If not nothing, then on what basis would you calculate an initial valuation? Because they'll ask where your number came from and get you to justify it before they say either yes or no.

    Don't you DARE tell me you wouldn't put some "ficticious" price on your own development time. Possibly a swerve with "I wouldn't sell it to a publisher", but the hypothetical question predicates you will.
     
  11. Applewood

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    Oh do me a favour, I've been trying for several days. See my above post for the best thing I've come up with yet to explain it.
     
  12. Indinera

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    Applewood, I really have nothing against you, but the whole point of this all is that the above quote is just the truth, both sentences. You don't need to feel so bad about it, there is nothing to take offense from...

    I don't know where in the world you've seen that - bias maybe? At best it's a wrong impression. :p
     
  13. Dogma

    Dogma New Member

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    Ugh, I wished I had that luxury. I started as an indie gamedev last november. You know what I did before that? Save money for years so I had a sufficient buffer to do this fulltime. You know what I did before that? Get a masters degree in programming at a good university, and learning both to program and create art. I just take this very seriously, and when people say this something that can be done on the side with no budget or fulltime commitment it just sounds a naive to me and it fails to pay respect the huge amount of drive, passion and discipline it takes to create a high quality game with a small team. But maybe that is just me having very high expectations.
     
  14. Adrian Lopez

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    I'm not sure there's anything in what I said that requires explanation, but the fact is that no man's circumstances are altogether unique. If Jason Rohrer can make games and support a family on what most would consider a pittance then no doubt so can many others. It's really that simple.

    I'd have to get either a fair percentage of whatever I would've made had I sold the game myself or of whatever the game would be likely to make once it's in the publisher's hands, whichever amount is greater.

    I presume you meant to say "don't you dare tell me you'd put some fictitious price on your own development time", which indeed I wouldn't. I also wouldn't put a fictitious price on how much my own company would pay me.
     
  15. Dogma

    Dogma New Member

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    No, it is not that simple. Wouldn't you rather learn how to build games without having to live in poverty or leeching on others? Isn't that what this forum is for? Giving people information on how to build games as a full-time indie developer and have a "normal" life?
     
  16. Indinera

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    You miss the point. This Jason Rohrer case is an extreme one, its only purpose is to show what *can* be done and to me is not more shocking than the 100k blog post. Similarly I know from a friend that you can also live decently with 1200 euros monthly in the French Riviera - not saying it's not best to live with 3K, but if someone says 3K is the minimum to live in the Riviera, I will come and say "bullshit". Do you see a parallel with the blog post?
    Plenty other cases are not that extreme as Jason's, allow a normal life, and yet do not involve even of fraction of those 100k.

    A sad thing Applewood needs someone labelled Zynga to listen whereas there are factually real indies making profitable games with low budgets... apparently he did not want to listen to that Grey Alien game, shame because it seems legit to me.
     
    #76 Indinera, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  17. Applewood

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    Let me just get this straight. You're pulling me up on spelling now? ROFL

    Anyway. So, you'd actually put the development price at zero then, even when asked to do an audit so you can get paid for it, or did I misunderstand?
     
    #77 Applewood, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  18. Nexic

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    Adrian:
    I think generally when people talk about how much their game cost, the reason they are doing it is for the benefit of others. Be it investors, publishers, other game developers. These people want to know from an unbiased standpoint how to quantify how successful you were (or plan to be). If you say the game cost $1,000 to make, and you generated $5,000 in revenue, that immediately sounds like a success story when in fact it isn't (unless you spent less than a month on it). Likewise, if I said that my game made $10,000,000, but that I spent $10,000,000 on it, that sounds like a failure when in fact it wasn't. I just happened to take the entire $10,000,000 as a salary. The best way to quantify it, IMO is to base it on industry standard wages as that will give the most clear picture.
     
  19. Applewood

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    Hang on, let me just back check this because the logic evident in this thread is starting to make me doubt my own name.

    With what you're are quoting there, you are somehow trying to make your point and disprove mine? Lemme restate mine and you can say yes or no. "I value the financial opinions of indies that make lots more money than I do, over the financial opinions of indies who make less than I do". That's what I thought I said. Is that not what you heard? :) If that /is/ what you heard, can you explain in simple words what is so very wrong about my stance there?
     
  20. Indinera

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    lol you don't know how much I'm making, do you?
    And I'll leave it at that. Make your own conclusion. :p

    ps: unrelatedly, what you value is kinda irrelevant to whether the blog post is true or not btw (just saying...)
     

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