Double standard for reviews of indie games?

Discussion in 'Indie Business' started by Musenik, Apr 15, 2011.

  1. Adrian Lopez

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    Not all games need shadows, but those that look weird without them would certainly need them to qualify as having polished graphics.
     
  2. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Like I said, it was just an example. If there is a reasonable expectation for a particular something to be there, it better be there.
     
  3. Bad Sector

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    @Jack Norton:
    Gemini Rue is actually a very good example of what LateWhiteRabbit was talking about: the graphics look good and consistent. As an example, in Dave's older games it always bugged me how the graphics were low-res but the fonts were high-res. Well actually that bugs me in every low-res game i see :). Somehow it feels a bit cheap.

    @Applewood:
    I don't think that shadows are a good indication. Some engines (like the free Unity i believe) do not have good or any support for shadows. When it comes to 3D graphics and attention to detail (without going overboard) i think the use of lighting and texturing is a much better indication. What good is a soft filtered shadow if the object that casts it is a cube with badly aligned textures in an environment with extreme texture tiling and a single light source which happens to cover the entire world in color #FF00FF (or 1024 tiny point lights of random colors to show off the deferred shading).
     
  4. Applewood

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    Actually, I think that's a perfect indication. You had to use a freebie engine with missing vital features? Good bye.

    I'm not sure why my comments like this are always misunderstood tbh. I've reread the few recent ones I got flamed for and my messages were perfectly clear, so I'm thinking it's more about people not wanting a dose of truth.

    Earlier someone pulled out a quote about half a mil being too much money. I agree, but do you think that's our problem or our punters? You think they feel honour bound to buy something just because you want to sell it?
     
  5. Henri Karapuu

    Henri Karapuu New Member

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    How about some really deep strategy game, which has just ugly, incompetent and lazily made graphics? I wouldn't say that the game is shit.

    Actually assuming similar game play i might prefer just plain ugly and unfinished graphics to the latest retro indie artsy 7-bit pixelated bullshit :) god i'm tired of that.
     
  6. Henri Karapuu

    Henri Karapuu New Member

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    But the blog and discussion were about polish and production values in general, not only graphics. Minecraft had 0.0% polish when i played it last time. No tutorials or help at all, users need to go googling for some friggin wikis to learn how to play. That's some nice polish for product that brings 30 millions home :)

    I do agree with your point in general though, but minecraft really was not good example, it usually never is, because it is such a statistics defying anomaly.
     
  7. Bad Sector

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    The free Unity was an example and you obviously know that an engine being free has nothing to do with missing shadows. Although i don't consider them as a vital feature, they're more of an effect, like particles and post-processing. There are much more important parts in an engine than the kind of shadows it has, like the way the worlds are represented, the engine's design, the toolset, etc. Interestingly, Frayed Knights, Coyote's own game (which is under development since 2005) uses the first generation of Torque which seems (from the game's shots) to lack shadows (and apparently he didn't thought about shadows). Still, the game has clearly so much work on it (and it was voted as the most promising RPG by RPG Watch) that i'm not sure what to think if someone wouldn't buy it because it lacked shadows.

    Now, personally i would spend a weekend adding shadows on the engine. But that is only because i like graphics programming and somehow it feels "wrong" to me to not have shadows in an engine i'm making, given how easy is to implement simple shadows. However i wouldn't even think of not buying a game because it doesn't have some sort of visual effect (the opposite isn't true, though - i bought Outcast only because i was curious about it's engine :p).
     
  8. Nexic

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    So World of Warcraft looks like it was made by amateurs? Seems a bit ott to dismiss games just because they don't feature X technology. I think quality, polish and artistic style are far more important to the overall look.
     
  9. Applewood

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    I'm sick of all the pedantry, deliberate misinterpretations, picking quotes out of context and general blindness of the people here.

    Go make your 10 dollar games with no outlay and get selling them en masse then. Fuck the lot of you, I'm done.
     
  10. Desktop Gaming

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Ok... I don't wish to sound rude but why have an epic tantrum just because you don't agree with others, or they don't agree with you? This is a forum and a lot of opinion gets tossed about - its the foundation of healthy discussion. If you don't agree or like the opinions of others then that's fine, and they might not like yours either. But there's surely no need to throw a paddy like you just did - its not nice to watch and doesn't reflect well on you.

    Over and.... erm... out.
     
  11. Applewood

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    I can handle being disagreed with just fine. It's being misrepresented and pedanted to death with the boring old exceptions proving the rules etc. etc. There just seems no point saying anything on here. If it bucks the accepted comfort zone trends then it must be a pile of bollocks. So just take three group hugs from me, assume I agree with everything everyone says, especially those who are well known for making oodles of cash, and just be happy I've left. I only read this because I'm still subscribed which I've now fixed.
     
  12. Nexic

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    How did I misrepresent you? You said any game that doesn't have shadows is amateur and you won't play it. How many ways are there to interpret that? If that's not what you meant then why did you say it?
     
  13. Applewood

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    By taking what to any sane man would take to be flavour text, stamping it in bold in your mind and then proving an exception means I'm talking crap.

    I'm just not going to sit here all day proof reading every tiny detail just so people can't start a flaming about a side issue or minor point I may have made by example or generalisation, whilst dodging the main one that often goes unnoticed. I mean, if you can make a game for 10 dollars and sell it for a million, why are you here arguing with me ffs? go make another one this afternoon.

    And you know what really, really pisses me off? My company's income over six years is approaching 2 million dollars. How many people work there? Three. And yet I'm talked to like I know nothing by people punting out crap for beer money.

    And you know what, I almost edited that because I know that instantly everyone who fancies a fight would assume I mean them specifically with that last comment and open another round of bickering. But wth, if the cap fits...
     
    #33 Applewood, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  14. Dan MacDonald

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    I do think your comments are being deconstructed a little too literally Paul but at the same time this is the Internet. No one gives anyone else the benifit of the doubt and having an opinion just exposes you to the possibility of being trolled. Often the best response to posts by readers that have missed the forest for the trees is none at all.
     
  15. Applewood

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    Yep, you hit that right on the head, Dan.

    I feel like igf has become a losing game of whack a mole.
     
    #35 Applewood, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  16. Indinera

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    That's 300k a year for 3 people. I know some people who make more than that with a fraction of the budget you were seeing as a threshold for profit (100k).
    Not trying to belittle you and you tend to belittle people yourself very often and very easily...
     
  17. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Yes you are, else why write it? Oh, I know. Penny drops. Someone has taken what I said the wrong way. How stupid of me - after all its only been an hour since the last time.

    We all "know some people". Especially those that make more of a return by valuing their input as zero dollars. Meanwhile out here in the real world, two hundred grand a year profit might not worry Donald Trump, but I'll settle for it thanks. Now if only I could find a way to reduce my costs to zero...

    Although I did mean profit when I said income. Thought my math was off for a minute.
     
    #37 Applewood, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  18. Desktop Gaming

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    Punting out.... what?????? If its your intention to annoy people then its certainly working here. I've been polite so far but please remove your head from your ass. Regardless of how much you claim to make in a year you seem to think it magically puts you in a position where you are always ALWAYS right and have the right to verbally bitchslap anybody who dares disagree with you. It's not a good trait. Broaden your mind and get over yourself - you're no more important in this forum than the rest of us are.
     
  19. Applewood

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    Crap, mate. You're telling me you've not seen any? In fact a lot of the most vocal "experts" don't seem to be selling anything at all.

    You got everything wrong again about my rant. It's clearly my presentation not my message as it happens any time I start typing. Let me try this again to be clear.

    People saying they can do game development for no cost? Rubbish. So rubbish it does offend me. This isn't a debating point despite people thinking it is. So yes, anyone who says they can do gamedev for nothing, but somehow won't do my games for me for nothing, are not adding to any meaningful discussion about dev costs. Just making noise.

    People saying $100,000 is too much for a game project? Rubbish. I've been doing game dev for 25 years and adjusting for inflation I've never worked on any one project that cost less than that. Ever. I don't even see how it could be physically possible to go *way* under it. And I've avoided the big studios all my life so that's not the reason. The reason is.. drumroll.. games actually cost money to develop. This is not a debate either. It's really not.

    People who actually make proper wages arguing with me? Perfectly fine. I'm always willing to learn from people with insight. But that's actual insight, not made up math and mind games.

    Am I being overly rude and obnoxious right now? Yep, absolutely. My mind has in fact melted completely over the last few days worth of utter drivel.

    Now who wants to butcher that one and pick something out of context and throw it back at me?

    Me being rude? Sure, goes both ways. What, people start beating up on me, you expect me to roll over?
     
  20. Indinera

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    Well to be entirely fair I doubt people who make big profit out of $20 (lol) really want to disclose their numbers... you have to consider this as well. Incomes, profits etc are usually private yet needed in this kind of discussion.
     

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