Are 2D games dead?

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by sofakng, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. MedievalElks

    MedievalElks New Member

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    Great writeup. This is why I don't like modern sports games. I know what real sports looks like, and the best they have today still looks like cartoon robots.
     
  2. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Well, that's down to the quality of the artists and graphics developers, not really anything to do with a 3D display.

    My favourite game right now (and has been for a while) is Wii bowling. I often state that 3D doesn't have to mean first person. It also doesn't have to mean photorealistic.
     
  3. vjvj

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    Uncanny valley. It's the best we've got, because 2D art ain't gonna solve the problem; so it basically comes down to accepting the flaws in one and rejecting the flaws in another i.e. uncanny valley.

    Regarding quality, the most prominent sports games (EA's) have never been known for having the best graphics. Take 2 has been clobbering them in that department for years; especially in football games until EA mu$cled them out with that NFL/NFLPA deal.
     
  4. J_Z

    J_Z New Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    My problem with 3D is that for some reason 3D graphics become bigger than the game, a bad 3D art might ruin a game with good gameplay, for some reason that doenst seem to happen with 2D art even when its "bad" 3d art rendered.[/QUOTE]

    Right on, and thanks for leading back to the subject :D There's different mediums, and they all have their advantages. To go all the way back to the top of the discussion-- 2d is not dead. Simple as that, i think all the conversation has at least proven that here.

    I think from a production standpoint, developers won't consider 2d because they
    1. can only react to the art (instead of direct), and let's be honest, who does real, solid preproduction these days (in 2d, everything you can't use is waste you see, so these "art directors" don't have the option of saying can we change this or that, i had my head up my ass and don't know art, etc...)

    2. the cost, while perhaps not more (30+ million dollar budgets for AAA games) is a concern. Can you see the suits hearing "we have to hand draw every single frame?!?".

    And, from these types of corporate issues, IMO, there comes the trickle down effect. Either people that don't know any better, stating 3d is the ONLY way to go because they were caught up in production space, or simply the lack of 2d skills or finding the right artist to accomplish the job.

    Needless to say, just because something is easier, doesn't make it better by any means (in fact, it's usually the opposite). I mean, look at all the "originality" out there now...
     
  5. vjvj

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    You make some good points about production, and I agree on those.

    You've also helped clarify something for me. I've been struggling to put my finger on something about the 2D vs. 3D graphics discussion that bugs me, and I think I get it now (or at least, part of it): It's this issue of modern game problems being miscategorized as 3D problems.

    Lack of originality: This is nothing new. For every WWII FPS out there now, I can point to some shitty Double Dragon brawler knock-off on the SNES or steroid action hero run 'n gun from the NES. People are forgetting how many bad ripoffs came out in "the good old days". Advances in technology haven't changed anything (and don't forget that there were advances in technology back then, as well).

    3D graphics becoming bigger than the game: Same thing. I think people are forgetting that graphics were just as important back in the 2D days as they are now with 3D. The only difference is that 3D has replaced 2D in terms of mindshare. Because in the grand scheme of things, few people really give a shit about 2D anymore outside of old fogies like us, that subset of interactive art guys who purposely pursue shitty graphics out of some (IMHO) pointless rebellion, and Metroid/Castlevania fans. Remember when Street Fighter Turbo came out for the SNES and Genesis? Everyone was doing articles on graphics comparisons between the two versions, with practically the same scrutiny you see now in Gametrailers' graphics comparison videos. Wherever there is modern gaming, there will be a bunch of dweebs comparing pixels. 2D is just lucky enough to not be on the forefront anymore.

    It's gonna be hilarious 20 years from now when we are having the exact same discussions, except it will be about how so much has changed since we moved to holographic displays and omgz some things were so much better in old-school 3D.
     
  6. Maupin

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    I don't know, 2D is alive and well and kicking 3D's assocks in the casual game space. Hidden object games, time management games, match-3 games - most are just "blit surface B to bigger surface A" type games.

    It had better be alternate reality! So when you're living your life as your Sims 4 character... waiting for someone IRL (or one or two AR levels up) to come by and turn your game off because you forgot the Sims 4 end game command... you can unlock Quake 3 on your Sims 4 mobile device. And spend your game time trying to connect to a dodgy alternate reality Q3 server. (Instead of walking around your neighborhood murdering people in swimming pools by removing their ladders.)
     
  7. vjvj

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    Yes you are right, I did miss that one. I'd generally go 2D for any casual games I'm involved in, as well (barring any special effect I might be going for).

    LOL... Indeed. I can see it now: Sims 4 characters playing Sims 1, in-game...
     
  8. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    I remember when people attacked the Megadrive (Genesis) System about not being able to play StreetFighter 2 corectly, well I had lots of fun playing the Megadrive version... :D

    Im really not sure if it also applied to 2D, even back then, I also think that the 3D wars (for photo realism) destroyed our concept of "games arent reality, THEY ARE JUST GAMES... ITS FUN", so we expect 3D graphics to be flawless. And no game out there can cheat our brain into thinking that what we see on screen is close to reality.

    Also there is something more in 3D games, not just graphics... When you see a 3D game you expect some physics rules to apply, some of the "real" world also inprinted in the game, because if the people are close to reality, anything else will be close to reality as well. So how many of you would accept the latest 3d game hero to pickup a iron box (weighting a few tons) of his size (or bigger) and walking around happily with it... now how many of you would accept this in a 2D game?
     
  9. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I think this is all a bag of bollocks tbh.

    I would put up with whatever works in either format. If you have some preconception that all 3D games must be photorealistic FPS shooter games with accurate physics or something, then that's your problem. It's certainly not a reason to say that 3D is bad.

    The overall message I'm getting here though is that 2D is better for gamers because it's more shit than 3D. Think I'll be leaving this thread now....
     
  10. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    Just like I said... its all a set of tools we can use where they work best.

    Anyway, I was saying that the *3D WARS (for photorealism)* made our (as in society) conception of a 3D game as nothing more than a game where you try to achieve realism.

    Also dont get me wrong... I love great 3D art as I love great 2D art. For example and many people will argue with this Im sure, I belive that the Cartonish look of World of Warcraft made it a game with GREAT 3D art. You know its not real or even accurate... but heck you got to admit its done in a way that it is at least believable, this is great 3d art and its not a photorealistic FPS (which I personaly dislike). But most 3d (photorealistic or FPS or whatever) games cant do this.
    Another great example of this is the "Arklight", as soon as I saw the graphics of the game I fell in love, they're simple (boxes) not realistic (more boxes) but they achieve the final result (to be more boxes), for me it was a visually great game.

    As for the physics and realism stuff, well its just hard to try and convice your brain that every rule he learns from birth is going to be trasnformed by a computer game, it feels awkward to the brain, ence to you. So the closer you make the games to the set of rules the brain knows, the harder it is for him to believe the game as something feasable, as you break them.

    Writing this I realised that the problem probably lies in the consistency of both worlds, perhaps a 3D world is harder to be "believable" (NOT the same as realistic) than a 2D world... but that's just my humble opinion.

    Not just this, but almost 99% of everything and everyone else. So I'll have to say you're right. :D
     
    #210 Spiegel, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  11. hippocoder

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    I'll just repeat myself for the 6th time or so:

    2D rendered isometric games are 3D
    Tekken is 2D

    The technology no longer dictates the style of the game. If we call a game 2D we should call it 2D because it plays along 2 axis.

    Likewise call a game 3D if it plays along 3 axis.


    Thats all I have to say, because the underlying tech should all be 3D where possible, even if it looks 2D.
     
  12. Spiegel

    Spiegel New Member

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    Follow the man for he speaks the truth.

    Well, if the division is about gameplay your right, but I was discussing the fact that "some" 3D GRAPHICS are not as believable as the same level 2D GRAPHICS, no discussion on gameplay here, whether the game is played on 2 or 3 axis.

    In my opinion, if it matters anyway, 2D & 3D ( Graphics or gameplay ) are allies not competitors, use them where it fits best. Watch Breath of fire IV for some great 3d world & 2d Sprites blending and see god of war for 2d & 3d gameplay mixed together in action.

    Last comment on this argument by me, as it is pointless to discuss this, as much as to decide who came first the hen or the Chukie egg.
     
  13. hippocoder

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    Chuckie Egg did. I really enjoyed that back in the day :D
     
  14. Backov

    Original Member

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    Where's that legion of moderators?
     

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