"Apple should learn from Nintendo"

Discussion in 'Indie Related Chat' started by PoV, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. PoV

    PoV
    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't browse a lot of blogs, but there's one I hit up every few weeks for gems like this:

    Apple Should Learn from Nintendo:
    http://cathodetan.blogspot.com/2005/10/apple-should-learn-from-nintendo.html

    More or less, the bottom line here is Apple needs the killer app. Sure, they have some great hardware (Mac's, iPod's) and a fine OS. But what else does the consumer have to say, "hey... I want a Mac 'cause it does or plays this". An interesting thought. On the one hand, because the Mac doesn't have the exclusive games like Battlefield 2, Age of Empires X (whatever the newest is), or other PC retail hits, at least not right away, the indie kids can sneak in a get a significant marketshare. Discuss.
     
  2. soniCron

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,664
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny; I ran across that yesterday. And I disagree. Mac has the "killer app." It's called MacOS X. Unfortunately, most people have never seen a Mac outside of the movies or television. This isn't good, and needs to change before Apple can ever grab a sizable share of the market. What Apple needs to make themselves cheap enough that people can have an Apple as a secondary computer. Once people can get an Apple as a secondary machine for very little cost, you'll see the conversions go through the roof because of their already existing "killer app." Perhaps a Mac-Mini with a built-in KVM switch would be the perfect first step.

    No super-awesome game will make a difference, especially since the console market is increasingly grabbing up the gaming market. Apple doesn't need gamers, they need computer users.
     
  3. HairyTroll

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's never been about the OS, if this were so then the C= Amiga, IBM's OS/2 and perhaps Be's BeOS would be duking it out for top honours right now.

    Applications are everything.

    Yes, OS X looks great, probably has fewer bugs and a lot less compatibility problems. But the only real benefit that OS X has over Windows for the average consumer is that there are very few viruses that target that platform.
     
  4. Greg Squire

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that in terms of "gaming" that Apple does not have that "killer app". However in the greater "Digital Lifestyle" that they talk about, they do have some "killer apps". The biggest one being the iPod (a combination of hardware and software). It's become a status symbol in it's own right. There are lots of people that won't buy just any MP3 player, it's got to be an iPod for them. It was the iPod and iTunes that help bring digital music to the mainstream. The Mac OS (and it's mini bundled apps; browser,dashboard,etc.) and the included iLife apps (iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, Garage Bande) are the "killer apps" for some that get them to buy a mac. Lots of Mac sales reps talk about how most everything you need is already there when you buy a mac, and lots of people buy into that as it may be true for them. Apple has always appealed to the creative and non-techie communities, and has alway touted "ease of use" and "apples just work" (both of which could be debated). They've captured a large share of the graphic design, film, sound, and music industries to the mac platform. Though historically these have come a higher price (hardware and software), due the proprietary platform. Yet, Apple is making some inroads with "cost concious consumers" with their Mac-Mini. I believe Windows marketshare is eroding due to this.

    Apple definately has lost the battle on the gaming front however. If gaming is a major consideration when buying a computer (hard-core gamers), then that person will most likely choose a PC. If gaming is not much of a consideration (casual gamers), then they will go with one that meets their other needs, and that could be a Mac. Most people don't buy a Mac just for games. I believe that's why a lot indie games do so well on the Mac platform; it's an underserved market, with a "more-casual" player base. That's not to say that there aren't hard-core gamers using Macs, it's just that they aren't playing the hard-core games on the Mac (as few are ported to the mac), but rather they are playing them on a console (or maybe PC) instead.

    Maybe Apple needs to come out with their own console (call it the iBox?) to win in this space. :D
     
  5. SquareDanceSteve

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mac’s used to be a very large share of the business market and have a total share of the educational system. I never saw a IBM compatible until my dad purchased a Tandy 486. Despite what Mac people like to say, Mac’s are not easier to use and they are not any better at video editing then a comparable IBM compatible. Mac has the right idea now that they are switching to Intel’s, there is no reason they should spend hoards of money developing a different to be different system. Killer software (something Mac’s are horribly lacking) would make a huge difference, I can’t think of any reason I would want to buy a Mac. What Mac needs to do is provide powerful streamlined x86/windows compatibility so those expensive video cards are worth something. Its the same thing with you Linux guys “It’s not Microshaft!†is not a good reason why I should use a Linux machine. People are going to use the most cost effective, efficient to use and easy to service platforms. And I know a lot of you won’t admit it but Microsoft’s dot net development environment is a Killer Application and we should only expect the windows share of the market to increase, and before you guys who live at universities kick in with your usual, the majority of Linux and Mac users are in some way involved with the educational system and you are not actually seeing realistic a market proportion.

    I for one will continue to develop for the largest user base unless Mac or Linux drastically increases its user base.
     
  6. PoV

    PoV
    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aint that the truth. If the casual side of the next generation of consoles takes off, then as a gamer or new gamer, the console will be where you'll want to be. More and more, the PC is losing out. The PC wont die as a gaming platform since PC's are multifunction.

    But hold on, what's actually coming out for PC in retail anymore, short of console ports now? RTS's? MMO's? Overdue Molyneux games? Spore? Digging through EBGames coming soon list, I can't say I'm seeing any worthwhile exclusives. Lots of special editions, expansion packs, and yes, ports. All this talk and interest about a future of hardcore gaming on PC, Manifesto Games and whatnot. The PC has become the console market's portbitch (Sorry, I just had to use that word :D). Short of a WoW addiction, what's going to keep the gamers on the PC? Can I justify a $400 video card purchase in 3 years, for the rare 1 exclusive game, or can I justify it for ports? How could you justify it for ports, when for less you could own the console, and have access to everything.

    Indie opportunity, potential, whatever. Casual is thriving, and I expect to continue happily on the PC, as distractions while you're being productive will always be welcome. But in 3 years, will there be a hardcore PC market? The whole grand scheme behind Manifesto, is it doomed? Or is this how it will happen?
     
  7. SquareDanceSteve

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Strategy games outself fps games, computers have a huge edge on consols when it comes to resolution even an HD tv isnt very good when it comes to precise instructions
     
  8. joe

    joe
    Original Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, the best OS doesn't appeal if you have no applications running on it.

    Second, I don't like MacOS X (I hope I don't get banned from these boards for this comment :) ). What's so great about it? Ok, it looks nice, but in my opinion an OS don't need to look nice - it has to be fast, small and stable. (btw: I also don't like Windows XP)

    probably at this point OSX is a little bit better than Windows but some apps also crashes on OSX often. At first I also tought "wooow, that OS looks great", but when I used it I don't like all those fancy effects anymore. I think if it's because of the OS you can also use Linux on PC.

    I also remembered when I saw an Pegasos last year with MorphOS running. I just tought: what a great os. It looks nice and it is soooooo fast you can't believe (faster than anything I saw before, about 3-4 seconds to boot completly). Also the apps are starting fast as hell. Only problem: There are no apps for it and also a very small userbase.

    So what can we learn from that. The most important questions is: What can you do with your system? With Windows you have the most (and chepeast) possibillities of all.
     
  9. soniCron

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,664
    Likes Received:
    0
    If it crashes once less every day, then I'd say it's "better." But that's just me! :)


    The Mac may not have every program in existence, but, with the exception of games, I strongly urge you to show me something Windows has that MacOS X does not, in equivalence. ;)


    It's not about apps crashing. If there's a bug, and app will crash. No operating system can prevent that. It's about that app also bringing down the whole system, causing other apps to crash or freeze. I'm not saying this never happens on Macs, but I'm getting pretty darn sick of rebooting Windows every day.


    You get what you pay for. ;)
     
  10. Phil Steinmeyer

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Mac lacks a really good development environment to rival MSVC. XCode is free, which is nice, but it is way behind MSVC in many ways. Codewarrior was good a while back, but I believe Apple has sorta killed it off with the free XCode and the Intel fatbinary thing (correct me if I'm wrong).
     
  11. Ricardo C

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    3
    I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy, but give me a break. I can't even remember the last time my XP system crashed, and it's on virtually 24/7. Statements like the above were valid when Win98 was mainstream, but not so much since 2001 or thereabouts.

    Back on topic, the Mac's killer app is already here: the iPod and iTunes combo, especially now that video is being added to the mix. Apple may have lost the desktop war, but it seems poised to win the digital media delivery one. Media Center Who?
     
  12. HairyTroll

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    AutoCAD? Not game related but still a deal breaker if you need it.
     
  13. Rainer Deyke

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    0
    A non-broken music player. By this I mean:
    • I double click on an mp3 file and it plays.
    • I double click on an Ogg Vorbis file and it plays.
    • I double click on an m3u playlist file, containing a list of either mp3 or ogg vorbis songs, and it plays the playlist, in order, exactly once.
    • It does not copy music files. It does not shuffle my playlist. It does not decide that I really want to play some other music file. It does not do a little dance. It just plays the music files I tell it to play, in the order that I tell it to play them, when I tell it to play them.

    Bonus points for letting me queue multiple music files and playlists.
     
  14. arcadetown

    Moderator Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,476
    Likes Received:
    0
    So many apps available, is "killer app" even possible anymore? IPod/ITunes probably closest can get these days.

    I support the community with Mac offerings on ArcadeTown and no offense but I really dislike my Mac. From user's perspective the UI feels clumsy. From developer's perspective it constantly introduces new challenges upon each new release. Meanwhile my crappy old DOS games I made way back in 1989 still run on my latest WinXP laptop w/o any intervention.
     
  15. SquareDanceSteve

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothing big about that... windows media player... winamp...

    AutoCAD is pretty serious.
    What about 3dsmax?
    Correct me if i am wrong but doesn’t an ipod work with a windows system? And there are many legit file sharing programs including napster and audiogalaxy.

    And what about the massive wealth of free and niche market software.

    So far I am seeing the same old depreciated mac arguments...

    I think we should be discussing what can be done to invigorate the pc gaming market.
     
  16. Sillysoft

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    831
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm.... Apple seems to be doing pretty well recently, with increasing profits, sales, and marketshare. That's pretty good considering they are up against the behemoth MS and freebie Linux.
     
  17. KNau

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    2
    What exactly should they learn from Nintendo, the company that's dead last in the console market? How to make gimmicky hardware? How to milk a handful properties by constantly reselling them to the same group of dribbling fanboys? Mac already has those strategies down.

    The reason the iPod was so successful wasn't just due to Apple's design aesthetic but also because you could get them at any mall in the country. If iPods were only available at Apple dealerships then it never would have taken off like it did. They need to go more mainstream with their PCs and stop marketing only to the shiftless Starbucks crowd. As long as you have to go to the whack-jobs at your typical Apple dealer to buy the PC they won't get beyond their niche market.
     
  18. Anlino

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to me, Apple should hire gameprogrammers. Every time i talk about Mac's to someone, they tell me: "Hell, why would anyone want a mac? There is no games for it!" Apple should supports gameprogrammers more. Indie programmers ain't engough, and most people donät know that they even exist.
     
  19. cyodine

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    I remember when I first started programming - I was like 10 years old and I was using my dad's Apple IIc computer. Later on, I got my own Apple IIe computer. Even back then, the decreased user base compared to the IBM market was negatively affecting me. I intended to learn assembly language for the Apple, and even found a book on it. The book contained thousands of lines of machine language code that you code type in to make the assembler that the book teaches you to use. I initially tried to type it all in - took way too much time and too much chance of error. You could also order the assembler for $10. I eventually tried to order, but by then it apparently was no longer offered. End result = I was stuck spending my summers making crude games in basic with a 40 x 40 screen resolution (the bigger resolutution took way to long to draw). The cool games that I played on the Apple (with a far less selection than the IBM, I might add), I could never hope to duplicate their graphics and speed.

    It wasn't until I got an IBM upon graduating from high school that I could actually learn how to make the higher quality non-BASIC stuff.

    The lesson it taught me is to stick with the mainstream stuff - so I use an IBM, program in C/C++, use Microsoft Visual IDE, use DirectX, etc. I've been happy doing this - rarely do I find code snippets or such that I can't get to work - usually a compatible version to my setup is listed.

    If Apple wants more customers, perhaps they could make a "buffer" package that makes porting my DirectX code (or perhaps even OpenGL) to Macintosh easy. Ideally, I could leave all my code as it is, and it would automatically use its own functionality for the underlying DirectX functionality. I doubt that most game developers that spend months and years working on their games would decide NOT to port it to the Mac if it took so little time, but perhaps I'm mistaken and it is a short, easy process? If it is short and easy, perhaps I should get a Mac.
     
  20. Ricardo C

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    3
    What if it makes a little love, or otherwise gets down tonight?
     

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer