ANN: Fairies

Discussion in 'Feedback Requests' started by Emmanuel, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. Jack Norton

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    Yes, that was a joke ;)
    Seriously, I agree: but don't look at me, if you check my website, you'll find just a bad attempt at a match3 game but no more clones.
    I thought indie was doing something new: I am trying to. But it seems that the secret to make money is copy (clone) other games.
    Prove me wrong: check top 10 of portals. I don't see any boxing simulation or RPG there... :D
     
  2. Sharpfish

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    I'm wondering, if funpause had used the popcap framework, would you have felt like this towards the game? ;)

    And fwiw a few of us on here have already stated how we have played games like chuzzle before chuzzle was released. I agree Chuzzle has brought it into the limelight again as zuma did to puzzloop for instance. And I also prefer chuzzle to this game but that is only personal taste and not because this game is "bad". 2 or 3 games along with this style compared to all the hundreds of bejwelled clones and you are worried about this?

    I can actually see a lot of value in your points,and I understand why you may be miffed, but I can not understand why you are concerned when you consider that popcap basicallly "owns" that particular market, and is not short of income from it so I doubt it has anything to worry about. A business does what it has to do to survive, it's all very well and good taking this standpoint from a position of success and security. :)

    Maybe the smaller guys just saw an oppurtunity to get some income built up too, so they could continue making games at all. It is all very well and good wishing devs would create those strange / interesting indie games that you obviously look forward to - but like you - they have realised for the most part there is no market for them or it is getting harder to make a return on investment and they become mere "cool" curiosities.

    When I started reading your comments I thought they sounded somewhat bitter - when I realised who was posting them I was shocked!!!

    ----
    as always I can see both sides though, I thought your post was a little harsh but everyone has a right to their opinion and I am sure you are not alone in thinking like this.

    For instance, it is relatively "easy" to clone a game and "just change the graphics" as you say because every gameplay question is set out for you to try. And I am sure many of these clones look constantly at the inspiration game while developing to basically copy verbatim the features and nuances. This is a big part of game development and eases a big burden to those devs trying turn titles around quickly.

    DrWilloughby mentioned above about how he had to make a lot of gameplay prototypes due to using 3D. I am the same. I am using a "familiar" and certainly not unique game mechanic as the core part of my work in progress (casual++ game)- and the problems 3D brings to the simplest of game play questions should not be underestimated. Controls and Viewpoints alone are a complete nightmare to get right compared to a simple cursor on screen "manipulating bitmaps".. this is what slows (us) type of devs down, along with the usual coding headaches of 3D. In 2D there surely is getting less and less you can do while remaining in the "golden" casual gamespace.. so along the line there will be clones though.

    I guess my real point is "what harm is it doing you?"

    and my other point is "I agree that imagination is seemingly beginning to dry up but I suspect it is not, it is infact people wising up to business sense like Popcap themselves did many years ago".

    So, just to be clear I am not attacking your for what you posted, if you feel it you feel it - and I do too in some ways, but there is surely no need to worry about it for a company like yourselves? And if it is as a player you are worried, I can point you to many "unusual" indie-games not made for generic casual audiences that would be more than willing to take some of that mountain of cash off you?

    Hey maybe POPCAP could help those devs taking risks and trying new things by starting to publish them too! there's an idea ;)

    peace to funpause and popcap.. your games are good and you are both making money, you should be happy! :)
     
  3. DrWilloughby

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    I'm impressed. I suppose working in 2D really helps keep the workload lower. Can you give us an idea of what percentage of your time was spent working on gameplay, and how much was spent doing everything else (user interface, etc)?

    I'm totally shocked by how much polish you were able to achieve in such a short time.
     
  4. Sharpfish

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    Those errors in the shots *look* a bit like low graphics memory? well the garbled ones do - not sure about the sprite sheets, may be worth checking the vram requirments (couldn't see them on your site).
     
  5. Raptisoft

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    Just for the record, I'd never seen Yoshi's Cookie until a few days ago. Though I can't imagine it plays JUST like Chuzzle.

    WTH? Chuzzle comes out, and there's clones of it all over the place six months later-- all of them started AFTER Chuzzle came out. But you all saw it six-- no, FIFTY years ago. Obviously you had very good reasons for not writing it last year.

    This is bullshit and you guys know it. Look, we all clone. The issue here is that you clone because you play a game, and you say, "Man, this is fun, but it's missing giant tarantulas that shoot laser beams, and that changes the gameplay." Then you write that new version. I'm with adhominem on this one, it looks like piggybacking.

    I don't really care-- hell, I did a Puzzle Bobble clone to get into the industry. But know why I did it? Because I thought it would be so cool if Puzzle Bobble had an endlessly advancing attack wave-- which it didn't. That was the MAIN MODE in Eggsucker and Dynomite... because I thought something was missing and I put it in.

    There's SO much you can add to Chuzzle-- which I won't post here because it's going into Chuzzle2-- but nobody's bothering. At LEAST you could do like Big Kahuna did to Bejewelled-- and make it so you're breaking out pieces of the board.
     
    #65 Raptisoft, Oct 31, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2005
  6. Savant

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    Forget the trees, there's a whole forest back there worth discussing. Sniping at me because I wrote a puzzle game isn't helping anyone.
     
  7. Sharpfish

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    IF these insinuations and counter-insinuations are going to fill this thread, is there any chance of enlightening the rest of us to the actuall feeling of similarity to the two games and where the calls of "direct clone" could be warranted (apart from a sliding game mechanic - done before by a few games).

    I know it is very hard to get the tone across in text instead of face to face so I must stress I am just really interested in this and am not taking "sides" so to speak. You know I rate Chuzzle highly for it's production and polish. And I know it took you (and popcap) a hell of a long time to get to that compared to how long Faries has apparently taken. And as I said I prefer Chuzzle because I like the theme better (but I still like Faries! important point that).

    2 similar things I think are:

    1.6x6 grid with same size sprites? (or is chuzzle 8x8? demo is my laptop so can't check that)

    2.When you make a match particles/elements move over to the left and "fill" something (scales in this, bottle in Chuzzle).

    The gameplay itself is not new so can't be called a direct copy, even if (and maybe it was) a big inspiration to make faries based on the great reception chuzzle had.

    Anyway, are there any other points you feel really tread on the toes of Chuzzle? I have only played faries very quickly the day it came out so there probably are more. But can we just get them stated so we can see what the full pictures is and see if "clone" is warranted or not?

    I am totally in the middle on this, I have a soft spot of Chuzzle and I am not blind to the obvious similarities in Faries but It just doesn't figure as a big deal to many players and I thought Devs were NOT that concerned with having fairly obvious/generic casual gameplay copied. If it had been a brand new concept with sparkling originality I could understand - it would definatly irk me that someone had not "Been able to think for themselves".

    Maybe this could be a watershed thread on where the line stands with cloning for developers (or maybe that would be better in a new thread not connected with this game, as I think it is unfair to funpause).
     
    #67 Sharpfish, Oct 31, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2005
  8. Sharpfish

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    Good reasons? The main reason was I thought the gameplay was dull and akward and distinctly UNFUN. IT took a product like CHUZZLE to really add shine and to warrant playing it because it was done so well. Look belive me or not, but I know I have played "slide the row" games many times before - and also understand I am NOT saying they LOOKED liked chuzzle or had the same grid layout or unusual features like line locking etc. They were in fact very poor games with drab graphics. This is not obviously talking about the nintendo game which is a different matter.

    I am sorry you feel like this John, you must remember when you released Chuzzle and a few people were saying "gaah it's a match 3 game" and I recall posting on how incredibly well done the game was and I loved it! so there really is no need to attack me or others who are just stating facts, I understand us artistic types get angry when we feel "ripped off" but accept that you did not INVENT sliding row gameplay and we can move on from there.

    Now - direct CHUZZLE CLONES are a different matter and If had developed it I would be annoyed too - but I wouldn't automatically get angry at everyone who happened to like a clone of it. I would consider it a success of introducing (or re-introducing) a good game style to the market. Just like zuma had (and still has) its clones because it was a good game - so will chuzzle. And can you tell us where the inspiration for Hamsterball came from? or the dino-egg thing?

    I hope you can see I am just playing devils advocate here and I am not against either you or fun-pause, and yes it is none of my business, I am merely offering insight into why people on this thread may be accepting of a game like Faries.

    Why?

    Ok, say it IS a direct clone of chuzzle. Now if it was some half assed attempt at a cash then fair enough, it would be a BAD game and a CLONE which is the worst thing, but you can see the time and polish that has gone into this game which didn't "come for free". And I will also say again I feel that Chuzzle has "higher polish" that is evident to me, where faries has brilliant fantasy style 2D art, the game of Chuzzle itself "feels" slightly better (and the theme is a lot more fun), but that alone can not make faries void?

    There is one unknown thing here though that only you (and popcap) know, and that is if releases like these affect your sales and in effect "ruin" your months and months of hard work? And that could be looked on as bad I agree.

    On the flipside - if funpause CAN manage to get a game of this polished quality out in such a short time is it really their fault?

    peace to funpause, popcap and *raptisoft* ;) I am *COMPLETELY ON THE FENCE* and just offering opinions, when I should be coding.. so I'll just let you all get on with it now :(
     
  9. Raptisoft

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    I'm not trying to pitch a fit here-- I'm not accusing you specifically, Sharpfish, I just happened to choose your chunk of text because it was onscreen at the time I felt like grabbing one to rant about. You weren't the only person to bring up Yoshi's Cookie.

    Here, I can sum up my whole rant like this: Everyone wants to think they've inspired someone. For instance, when Dynomite was big a couple years ago, people came out with similars that made me smile and say "hey look at that, people are doing bust-a-moves, I hope it works for them! I inspired people!"

    But this-- less Fairies than Gem Shop, admittedly-- feels like outright plagiarism, not inspiration. I don't really feel that miffed-- my attitude was more along the lines of "there's all this stuff I didn't put in Chuzzle, why didn't you put some of it in?"

    (But the "this is okay, because Yoshi's Cookie existed" arguments kinda tick me off.)
     
  10. soniCron

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    Just to be fair: Dr. Germ is really nothing like Collapse. (And for what it's worth, Collapse is a clone of Alexy Pajitnov's Breakthru! for the SNES.)
     
  11. Sharpfish

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    gaah.. I think soon we will discover that THE BEATLES* have already written every game that can be written and we may as well all give up ;)


    *This is reworking of the quote that apparently The Beatles had already written every possible song and everything else after was "derivative".

    oh.. and John, no hard feelings - I wasn't saying you are not right or whatever I guess I always over-empathise with the "small guy" who seemed to be coming under unfair attack. I understand your points, I agree in part. I have played Gem Shop and while I played it I never thought of Chuzzle. It wasn't particularly my sort of game and I thought it was a bit too generic (sorry to hipsoft guy who posts here - FWIW you have the best indie trivia game I have played - you see everything balances up in the end ;) )

    now.. I'M off instead of getting involved in other peoples "arguments" for once I am going to get involved in my own "gameplay code", that is, after I have got involved with some Lasagne, followed by some ice-cream. ;)
     
  12. Savant

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    Besides, to say that Dr.Germ is simply a clone of collapse is insulting. Dr.Germ rips off many different games. Collapse, Atomica, Candy Cruncher, Arcade Lines, Bubblet - and more!
     
  13. Sharpfish

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    Seriously, my lasagne is calling me but..

    (Savant - this is nothing directly to do with your game or anything, you just reminded me that's all :) )

    As it happens late last year I was looking at doing a game that took 4 gameplay types and put them into one game - with each type being a "clone" of a gameplay style. Bejewelled style, arcade lines style, super collapse style, and sliding game style... yes you read it correctly. I whipped a prototype then realised I didn't have the incentives to supply the assets for that kind of game so dumped it. I also thought that the play may be too diluted in that you would only get fans of one "mode" or other (not a bad thing, but seemingly not worth the effort).

    The morale of the story - there are probably far more "clones" and even original games sitting on peoples hard drives that never get released, a "release" can never be conclusive proof of when a concept was "invented".
     
  14. Sirrus

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    The question shouldn't be why do so many indies clone games but rather why are consumers gobbling up these clones?

    The fact remains - we all need to eat. If clones make money to put food on the table, then clones will be made.

    Its not even that the market has not had a chance at original games. They have the exposure, but they simply do not take to unique formulas often. It doesn't matter that Atlantis is a clone of Zuma (or a clone of a clone), but the real issue is why is it selling so well? Even being the fifth+ clone in line?

    If we were all in the position to take risks financially, we could introduce original titles. But when there is still strong profit in 'me too' concepts, being a small indie you must take stability over originality - until you reach a stable level.
     
  15. Emmanuel

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    John, Jason, you made landmark games. Not everyone can do that. I certainly don't claim to be as smart as that. If at some point I do manage to combine highly original gameplay with great production values and good market timing like you did, it will be fair enough when 6 clones come out a few months down the road. (you can refer me to this post if I am offended by them then; this is a problem I'd love to have, personally).

    You'll wipe us off the map with Chuzzle 2 anyway :)

    On another note, I'm happy to announce that BigFish Games has secured publishing rights. We've had a wonderful experience with their professionalism on Atlantis so we're doing it again.

    Best regards,
    Emmanuel
     
  16. soniCron

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    Perhaps future responses to cloning not involving Fairies could be posted here? :)
     
  17. adhominem

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    Sharpfish, to your point of how I'd feel if it was released in the PopCap framework... how would it make me feel any better? As you know we don't charge a thing for the framework's use, nor do we require people to publish through us if they do use it.

    We released the framework as open source for the indie games community because we thought it would help foster new game ideas, by letting some developers skip over the steps of developing their own engines and so forth, to concentrate on interesting new gameplay mechanics and ideas.

    To my mind this certainly qualifies as us "putting our money where our mouth is" as far as trying to spur new and interesting game development.

    To your other point of us helping out by publishing other people's games: well, we do. Chuzzle is of course a Raptisoft title that we chose to publish because it struck us as original and compelling... in retrospect it's possible to dig up games from the distant past that share some similarities, but nobody had put it together the way Chuzzle did.

    I'm not telling anyone how to run their business. My approval or disapproval of someone's practices is not a threat or demand. PopCap has been pretty low-key with IP issues to date, compared to, say, companies like Hasbro who mail out barrages of cease-and-desist legal threats on a near-daily basis. But my disappointment with the current trend in the "indie" games community remains.
     
  18. Chris Evans

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    I second that. Please continue the debate in the above thread ( http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4987 ). I always feel bad seeing someone's announcement/feedback thread get veered way off topic or closed. This is an interesting discussion though.
     
  19. Bmc

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    I've played Yoshi's Cookie recently and the only thing Chuzzle shares with it is the sliding mechanic.

    Some big differences.

    1) To eliminate a pieces in YC you have to slide rows and columns until every single piece in a row or every single piece in a column is the same

    2) When you eliminate pieces they don't come back (no more pieces are added to the board)

    3) The sliding mechanic isn't even implemented exactly the same
     
  20. Leper

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    I know this is off subject but...
    Do you live in Cincinnati too? I didnt know Papa was a national chain! :eek:

    Annnd for seriousness.

    I never buy games that get cloned 12 times a year (or more...)

    Not exxagerating, I mean I dont buy games that are constantly being cloned. I dont see the point because I can play all these demos if I want and never run out of "trial" time because a new clone pops out the woodwork by the time I'm done with a demo!

    Ok, but really... I think that people that bought zuma bought luzor and then bought tumblebugs and then bought that beetle bomp. I bet you that the difference in sales isnt that much and the people complaining are just not satisfied with their sales and are doing what humans do best, and that's POINTING FINGERS.Please guys, give me a break! How many WW2 games are out there right now? I mean PaaaLEASE! The market is NOT that simple and you cant just start pointing fingers because your sales arent as high as you hoped!!!! Remember people will always buy a game by a company with a great reputation first!!

    Why the heck would you even start playing the blame game?!? Sit down, and make something new then! I bet you that if people are big fans of a certain game they'll buy it and all of it's clones too! If you guys start lobbying the government to make it harder for clones to be made then you're just going to make it harder for smaller businesses to start off the ground.

    In the END: Tetris seems to still SELL ITSELF because of its NAME.

    I sure hope and pray to God that Lobbyists dont destroy indie-gaming because of these ridiculious accusations...
     
    #80 Leper, Oct 31, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2005

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