A weird loophole?

Discussion in 'Indie Related Chat' started by ggambett, Sep 3, 2005.

  1. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Law is fully aware that an unenforceable law is no law at all. So stop me from doing what I want with my demo versions if you can.

    Cas :)
     
  2. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear God. If you don't make copies of a product then you cannot be breaking copyright law.

    Copyright law has nothing to do with this situation.

    I can reverse engineer an exe, I can apply cracks to an exe and I'm not breaking copyright law. How on earth can viewing legal data be breaking copyright law? It is not copying anything!.

    So long as I don't make copies and distribute them then copyright law has nothing to do with this.

    Please Pyabo, explain to me how loading a legally aquired image in an image viewer is breaking copyright law.

    How about this seeing as you seem fond of the book analogy. If I buy a book then it's covered under copyright law yes? Now if I take that book home and tear every single page out and stick them to my walls am I breaking copyright law?
     
  3. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
  4. Pyabo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,315
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the original scenario, it's NOT a legally acquired image. This is the flawed basic assumption which I mentioned.

    Cas, I find your attitude somewhat surprising, coming from a game developer. You seem to agree that it's a violation of law or the user agreement, but you're going to do it anyway because no one can stop you? That's pretty much what drives software piracy... it's easy to do, and the repurcusions are non-existent for individuals. Obviously, choosing to BUY software is a personal choice these days.

    OK, I think I'm done with this thread... we seem to be going around in circles now.

    I hope I've been able to convince at least ONE person. :)
     
  5. Anthony Flack

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    0
    You still seem to think that some of us are actually going to do this. Nobody is going to do this. Cas has a great artist partner, why would he bother?
     
  6. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Indeed, why would I bother, when I prefer writing my own weirdy games in the first place :)?

    What I'm saying is, basically, I have become increasingly worried by the entire concept of "digital rights". I believe that once something's on my harddrive, it's mine to do as I please with, and at no point did I formally agree otherwise and I believe it should even be illegal to attempt to waive what I believe to be one of my statutory rights. Which means if I download a demo of a game and feel like writing a bit of code that patches the executable or even a reverse-engineered game from scratch so I can play the full game and even distribute that patch I do not believe that I break any copyright laws. However I do believe that whether I agreed to a license or not there are almost certainly some laws that frown upon redistribution of such an executable (in other words there is probably already a precedent set in law, and the law tends to take a dim view of things which are done to rip someone off one way or the other). But whether that is the truth or not I still actually believe in my right to write my own code from scratch and distribute it, whatever it does (except malware - for which there are definitely laws concerning its distribution).

    I don't think the thread's going in circles, it just seems that you disagree. But that's my standpoint and I don't think anyone's going to argue me out of it. Patch Ultratron to your hearts' content - I believe it is your right to do so. Hell I've even given the source away to make it easier.

    Cas :)
     
  7. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Downloading the official version of the game from the official website isn't legally aquired now?

    You're right - this doesn't break any copyright law at all.
     
  8. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    However redistribution of that patch can be seen by the courts to be specifically damaging to someone else's business and this has been ruled on several times in the past in several different territories, and I don't think the perpetrator of said patches/reverse engineered executables etc. have ever actually won. Usually I suspect because they don't have the money to defend themselves properly.

    Consider the mod chip makers for Xbox or PS2. What they're doing is entirely benign in my eyes (and let's face it, a very, very limited market) and I believe that Microsoft and Sony going after these guys probably hurt Microsoft and Sony more than helped them. However as the hardware is specifically sold at a loss and the business model is designed around selling games to run on that hardware the courts have, perhaps unbelievably unfairly, slapped 'em in irons.

    Cas :)
     
  9. Ricardo C

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    3
    ...Or because they are indeed violating copyright law. A crack eliminates the restrictions put in place by the copyright holder, effectively nullifying the original developer/publisher's rights to control distribution of their IP.
     
  10. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, that is not the case. A photocopier eliminates a publisher's ability to restrict the use of the IP that is a book. Or even a scanner & computer combo. Or even... a dedicated monk with a pen and paper. You will not see the manufacturers of photocopiers or abbeys full of inky monks served with a cease and desist order for breaking copyright laws.

    Cas :)
     
  11. Ricardo C

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    3
    Because the copy machines and ink pots were not explicitly designed to break copyright, just as knives are not manufactured with the explicit intent of harming people.

    A crack's sole function is to circumvent a restriction put in place by the developer/publisher, which does make it illegal.
     
  12. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    A crack is illegal - it breaks the DMCA. It does not break standard copyright law.
     
  13. princec

    Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,873
    Likes Received:
    0
    We don't have the DCMA in Europe btw... cracks are not illegal over here, either, until someone takes it to court and makes the distribution of the crack illegal.

    Cas :)
     
  14. Pyabo

    Original Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,315
    Likes Received:
    0
    You just refuse to understand this... You DO NOT OWN assets you download in a demo versionm, despite what Cas likes to believe, and despite the fact that it's free. How many more times can I say it?

    And no, Anthony, I'm not under the impression that anyone is actually going to do this, least of all Cas.

    The legality of cracks is a moot point... it's the end user that's violating copyright law if they don't legally own the game. Likewise, in Gabriel's original loophole scenario, it's the person using PopCap assets without paying for them that is violation copyright law... not the person who wrote the new executable.
     
  15. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    --Edit--

    Scratch that lengthy post, I think it's best to just agree to disagree. I think me viewing Popcap's assets in another program, like Photoshop, does NOT break copyright law. You clearly do.
     
    #95 luggage, Sep 12, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005

Share This Page

  • About Indie Gamer

    When the original Dexterity Forums closed in 2004, Indie Gamer was born and a diverse community has grown out of a passion for creating great games. Here you will find over 10 years of in-depth discussion on game design, the business of game development, and marketing/sales. Indie Gamer also provides a friendly place to meet up with other Developers, Artists, Composers and Writers.
  • Buy us a beer!

    Indie Gamer is delicately held together by a single poor bastard who thankfully gets help from various community volunteers. If you frequent this site or have found value in something you've learned here, help keep the site running by donating a few dollars (for beer of course)!

    Sure, I'll Buy You a Beer