2D equivelent to Ogre?

Discussion in 'Game Development (Technical)' started by Waffler, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Jay_Kyburz

    Original Member

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    I'm really torn. I hate having to write basic stuff like this. Its such a waist of time when there is good stuff out there. Problem is, nothing is perfect.

    BlitzMax = 3 platforms well tested, simple commands, everything you need for graphics and sound. Downside is dorky language and you need to do allot of leg work for non-game related things.

    Python and Pygame = 3 platforms of crappy raster renderer, but huge library and amazing language. Deep copy, pickling, good memory management,


    Python and Popcap = Windows only, nice renderer and nice language. Not sure I'm prepared to give up OSX.

    Python and PTK = 2 platforms, nice renderer and language, but would have to do the python binding myself. (probably not that difficult - but easier than writing the ogl 2d renderer - Its still work i would rather not do)

    etc.. I'm not very good at making decisions.
     
  2. Slayerizer

    Original Member

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    I never tested this one but here is the link

    link

    Photon is an API which is designed primarily to ease creation of hardware accelerated 2D games with OpenGL and other open source & cross platform libraries. Photon aims to simplify portable game development, enabling developers to focus on the gameplay. Photon uses OpenGL for hardware accelerated rotation, alpha blending, resizing, and drawing. Photon is built entirely on free software, using libraries including GLFW, PhysFS, OpenAL, Corona, Freetype and boost. Using Photon does not require knowledge of any of these libraries as their needed functionality is wrapped entirely within Photon’s rich class library so that anyone with a decent grasp of C++ can use Photon.

    Dependencies

    Photon uses several other libraries, which fall under a variety of licenses:

    * GLFW - zlib license
    * Boost - Boost Software License
    * PhysFS - zlib license
    * Corona - zlib license
    * Freetype2 - Freetype License (FTL)
    * OpenAL* - LGPL
     
  3. airfoil

    airfoil New Member

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    I'm in a similar boat Jay. I absolutely LOVE Python, so I'd prefer to work in it. The thing is I want to spend most of my time building the game and not banging out a bunch of lower level systems (GUI, language bindings, etc.). I was an early adopter of the Torque Game Builder so I'm currently investigating how well it will work for my game (a predominantly text based sports management simulation). Since I have the source for TGB I can add libraries and such if necessary. TGB pretty much has everything I need. It's cross platform. There is a great community surrounding TGB which is also a major plus. The major con for me is TorqueScript. As a Pythonista, TorqueScript is slightly less than ideal.

    However, I still haven't made a final decision and I've bounced between Pygame, PTK (trial version), Clanlib, TGB, and Blitzmax. I've done some simple tests in each one and...shocker...they're all great, but TGB is the only one that really provides the I-Don't-Have-To-Deal-With-Low-Level-Stuff experience that I'm looking for.

    Yes, I've seen the various Python bindings for Torque, but they just don't "feel" right to me.

    Yes, I could build my game using a GUI toolkit like wxPython, but the "coolness factor" goes wayyyy down with this approach.

    Indeed, nothing is perfect. ;)
     
  4. electronicStar

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    I've done one in Java+OpenGL, and then I have done another in BlitzBasic using 3D sprites.
    Both with particle, rotating, scaling, etc..
    In both cases it took me only a couple of months, but I already had a good idea of all the theory and of what I wanted to do (and I sort of enjoy creating these big infrastructures from scratch).
    If you know what you're doing, it's not a big deal.

    [EDIT] Just wanted to add : there are a lot of opportunites and choices available for the framework, so don't waste too much time chosing one. Just chose one that isn't too restricted and stick with it.
     
    #24 electronicStar, Feb 10, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2007
  5. IPv6

    IPv6 New Member

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    Wow! I`m using Irrlicht for my 2d casual game too. But i`m using 3d branch of the engine, because 2d stuff in irrlicht completely useless for gaming for several reasons. Besides that it is good choice, fast, easy to understand, good for prototyping and final product
     
  6. MikeD

    MikeD New Member

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    Hi Jay,

    I'm also a big fan of Python, but didn't know that there were bindings for the Popcap Framework. If they're publicly available, I'd love to get my hands on them. Do you know where I can get them?

    Thanks,

    --Mike
     
  7. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    I'm surprised no one has contested this. I don't believe it's that cut-and-dry that it takes less time to make 2D graphics than 3D graphics, at least with equal production values. The graphics for Street Fighter 3 probably took far longer to create the graphics for Half Life. I'd even be surprised if the graphics in Final Fantasy 6 took significantly less time to make than the graphics in Final Fantasy 7.

    I've never made a 3D game, but I have friends who have and I don't think they do any more work than it takes to make 2D games; think of it this way: you only have to make a single model in a 3D game and you can then animate it relatively easily, from any direction, whereas in a 2D game you need to draw and re-draw every frame of animation from every direction. It might be easier to make simplistic 2D than to make simplistic 3D, but to make good 2D can take fully as much time as making good 3D.

    I'm only saying this because I don't think it's a good idea to choose whether to make games in 2D or 3D based on how much work it is when the answer isn't obvious.
     
  8. raigan

    Indie Author

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    i think in the context of the OP, it's much faster for someone who can draw to create 2D graphics (i.e learn how to use photoshop/etc) than it is for them to learn how to use a 3D modelling package.
     
  9. Jay_Kyburz

    Original Member

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    Oh Sorry Mike, I don't think this one is publicly available.

    Jarrad, do you read these forums?
     
  10. Lerc

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    While true to an extent, That isn't really the full picture. Many 2d games use images created in 3d packages. All of the associated benefits of different angles etc. can be achieved this way.

    When it comes to an actual 3d environment as opposed to 2d, It's a huge deal more work because of one simple reason. In 2d the view is heavily restricted. in full 3d you have to make an environment which is far more complete, on he off chance that someone walks into the crawlspace between a couple of boxes then looks at the ceiling.

    [I often thought one of the more unrewarding jobs would be making the textures for the back side of buildings and scenery for a racing game. It only gets seen once in a blue moon and most big software companies wouldn't let you put anything subversive there.]
     
  11. electronicStar

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    I can't agree with that.
    I you speak about static character images, then the creation time must be similar. Modelling and texturing the 3D model versus hand drawing and digitalizing (although I suspect that a good artist can paint much faster than a good modeller can model. But that also depends on the modelling tool though, modelling with say zBrush becomes very similar to painting).
    If you talk about animations then yes, it's much easier to 3D animate than to painstakingly create every frame of a 2D animation.
    But you can really not say that when talking about the environment (levels) especially when talking about a game like half-life. The time to create all the level must have been months if not years, you can see the time they have been previewing about HL2 before it was finally released(it was approx similar to the time to develop HL1 actually).
    Creating and finishing a simple 3D level (like a deathmatch map) generally take around a month, even for the skilled mappers.
     
  12. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    I admit I didn't consider level-creation, I was thinking solely of resource-creation (2D sprites, background tiles etc. vs 3D models). It might take longer to build a level in 3D than in 2D, but even in 2D, you need to painstakingly arrange all the tiles from the tile set (provided you use tiled backgrounds as most 2D games do) to create the level, which isn't very quick either. For one of my games I built a 3000x2000 pixel level out of 20x20 tiles, tile by tile, and it was fairly tedious. It didn't take months, but it did take at least a week.

    So what I was saying is more like this: don't assume one is faster than the other until you've made a full game with moderately professional-looking graphics in each. I haven't either, so if you have I'll defer to your judgment.
     
  13. soniCron

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    What's all this talk about apples and oranges and kiwis? ;) Just as there are different tiers of 3D complexity, there are different tiers of 2D complexity. While a 2D fighter may have hundreds of per-pixel, hand-drawn sprites, other games get by with very simple animation.

    For example, there are a total of about 14 different cels of hand-drawn, multi-frame animation in Jeweltopia -- all for the 10 main characters. The rest is rotation, scaling, and alpha/color modification. By the same token, some high-res organic 3D graphics and animation I just finished for someone else's game took significantly longer to complete, almost all of which was spent modeling, texturing, and rigging. However, it would take ages to hand-draw as many animations as I was able to generate automatically in 3D. On the other hand, the upfront cost of 2D design is significantly lower than 3D production.

    Point is, you can't compare the asset cost of Alien Hominid with Bejeweled or Half-Life 2 -- they're apples and oranges and kiwis.

    (Sidenote: Rinku, you really need to rework your toolset if you're creating your levels tile-by-tile...)
     
  14. RinkuHero

    RinkuHero New Member

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    I agree about the different levels of complexity. It's true that 2D games tend to be simpler than 3D games nowadays. But I'm assuming similar levels of complexity. For instance, a RTS game made in 2D vs one made in 3D, or a puzzle game made in 2D vs. one made in 3D. If you assume an equal number of levels, characters, etc., it's not clear which is has the lower workload.

    I use the Game Maker, so I don't have a lot of flexibility when it comes to making tiled backgrounds. Here's an example of the type of levels I mean though. But I suppose I could have created larger "tile blocks" for areas which are repeated often. Thankfully my current game doesn't use tiled backgrounds.
     
  15. Farbs

    Farbs New Member

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    Sometimes :)

    Also, hello again MikeD! Sorry, but I'm still keeping the bindings under wraps.
     
  16. MikeD

    MikeD New Member

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    Hi, Jarrad. Didn't know the bindings being discussed were yours again. If you ever decide to release them, feel free to post a message about it :) (here or in the PopCap Dev Forums).
     
  17. Farbs

    Farbs New Member

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    Yep, if it happens you'll be the first to know :)
     
  18. impossible

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  19. voxel

    voxel New Member

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    I wish!

    The closest two are Flash and PlayFirst SDK. You can develop a 2D wrapper around OGRE (I thought about doing this).... but "Flash style animation" (vector) is non-trivial but sprite-animation is easy. I looked at OpenVG / Amanith, but found no art tool that would easily support it.

    The problem isn't so much the tech/egnine side - writing a 2d animation / game engine isn't horribly difficult. Writing a 2D animation tool as good as Flash for this game engine is 10x more time consuming...

    What about Director?
     
  20. Viktor

    Viktor New Member

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    Can I be the second? Please? Or is it too late for that? :)
     

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