So now everyone is a veteran of indie business?

[jwc]

This makes me laugh. The most experienced indie like svero, mike or goodsol almost never speak of their business or make articles about "what to do" or "how to do".

Instead it's flourishing a new trend of the new super expert developer. Usually people that doesn't even have a SINGLE game out, or maybe just a crap one that wasn't even launched on any portal or have homepages with PR3 and so on, and still they take time to write articles long 3 pages on "how to sell your game" and to always post to comment "you're wrong" based on I don't know what experience since they have NONE.

Come on, this is ridiculous, and is even more ridiculous that some people find those info "valuable"...

Well, this thread is probably going to be locked anyway...

[soniCron]

Obviously, the true secret is not to reveal your secrets!

[jwc]

so you mean that the real good tips are kept well hidden by the pros, while they laugh looking at what those clueless people write?

[Anthony Flack]

I'd like to see some links to some of these 3-page essays on how to sell games, if you don't mind. Because as far as I can see, there are three contentious points raised here:

• That these articles really do exist
• That the information in them is worthless or inaccurate
• That Svero keeps quiet

[PoV]

Well if the rest of us clearly know nothing, then don't read what we have to say. Talking from our lack of knowledge keeps us happy.

[jwc]

Ok svero talks, true. Even arcadetown did that upsell thing now that I check.

I don't want to make direct links, would seem a personal attack. But don't tell me you didn't understand to who I was referring...

I got nothing wrong with people trying to sell info with ads-filled site, even Pavlina does that. But at least, he proved to be successful, even if long time ago.

[jwc]

Originally Posted by PoV

Well if the rest of us clearly know nothing, then don't read what we have to say.

That's what I'm doing. BTW I'm not even a game programmer, but I find hilarious that so many people without ANYTHING to show, have big blogs/sites.

Oh well, nevermind, continue your way. I don't care.

[Thunder]

Well, svero talks, but he hasn't set the world of fire since what, aargon? (Of course it's the gas prices fault that Beetle bomb didn't sell, sorry.)

Now, the best example of someone trying to copy pavlina without any track record at all would be GameProducer. This guy is a riot.

Anthony isn't bad either. $1000 total for working on Platypus for 18 months, good going!

[PoV]

An visible absense of credits doesn't mean they're without credits or experience. And beyond that, business development is huge aspect of what we do here, more so than just making games. After all, you have to sell them.

[Davaris]

They are just doing it to generate Google traffic. The more content you have on your site the more free traffic it will get. I wrote 5 articles and they get me 120 extra visitors per week. I should write more I guess...

[jwc]

Originally Posted by PoV

And beyond that, business development is huge aspect of what we do here, more so than just making games. After all, you have to sell them.

After all what it matters is having a GOOD GAME.
You think aveyond would have been a hit on BFG without any promotion at all? wake up, the promotion FOLLOWED the success of the game, because it was a good game.

[Anthony Flack]

I don't want to make direct links, would seem a personal attack. But don't tell me you didn't understand to who I was referring...

I don't, actually. I guess it's easy enough to ignore. But it seems a bit wimpy to have a public moan about something without wanting to actually say what you're moaning about.

Well, svero talks, but he hasn't set the world of fire since what, aargon?

Svero sets plenty of things on fire. Just the other day he set his hair on fire. But he's still making a living selling his games.

Anthony isn't bad either. $1000 total for working on Platypus for 18 months, good going!

Thank you, Mr. Totally Anonymous! Now, perhaps you can show me where I gave people advice about how to run a business? No?

I don't talk about doing business deals, I talk about making games. And for what it's worth, I made a #1 best seller. But that's beside the point - I hate the idea that you have to have x amount of credentials in order to have a worthwhile opinion. How many hit games do you have to have made before you're qualified to put your opinions out in front of an anonymous person with no website, eh?

[jwc]

Originally Posted by Anthony Flack

But it seems a bit wimpy to have a public moan about something without wanting to actually say what you're moaning about.

Thunder posted the link for me.

[PoV]

You think aveyond would have been a hit on BFG without any promotion at all?

You say that as if Big Fish was the height of success. We're also probably talking low to mid 5 figures profit thanks to the portal's cut. That should cover her year of development living expenses, depending on her thriftyness. But that's the advantage of a team of one. Gish, a game commonly thought to be a success story of indie gaming hasn't performed that well, especially when you take in to account it's numbers have had to pay at least the programmer, artist and biz guy. Tribal Trouble, while an impressive game, doesn't seem so successful given the time and team size. And The Behemoth isn't profitable.

Having a good game is half the battle, without a doubt. But good intentions doesn't = money.

[jwc]

So if the authors of Gish and Tribal Trouble had read those illuminating post and followed advice of people without a game out, they would have sold twice? how exactly? explain because I don't understand. I'm idiot, you know.

[PoV]

He does have a game out.

I wont pretend the advice directly will lead to sales and financial success. But you do need to put much thought in to the business aspect of things. And without discussion or analysis, we're all making the same mistakes, and each discovering the same problems. That's why were here.

[Ricardo C]

Smells like Savant in here...

[PoV]

I doubt it, unless you're saying I've become the new savant. I liked his arguments.

[svero]

Hmm.. I'm not sure why anyone would go out of their way to attack me or Beetle Bomp. What advice I do try to give is meant to help people, but they can feel free to ignore it if they think I'm not credible for whatever reason. FYI, Beetle, while not a mega-hit along the lines of Diner Dash, did sell well after release, and continues to bring in decent royalties monthly.

[Bmc]

look no further than the first reply to this thread to see a good example of what you are talking about.

[jwc]

Originally Posted by Bmc

look no further than the first reply to this thread to see a good example of what you are talking about.

LOL exactly. I guess is enough to make one game, even if sells 0, to be able to tell everyone what to do.

I'm just wondering, do those people have a real job, are born rich, living by they parents? because surely can't live from their games earnings

[Thunder]

I'm not Savant, thank god. Savant "retired" when he got exposed as being really another known person from this board that had also mysteriously retired, both times due to wanting to keep his slave job.

sonicron is too easy a target. jeweltopia being "a cult hit in certain circles" is classic. I know of only one circle where his game is a hit; it's brown and doesn't get sunshine very often.

[Anthony Flack]

The thing is, if you supply your real name and a link to your website when you post - as quite a few of us here do - then anyone can judge for themselves how much they think your opinion is worth. And that's one thing that does bug me: I wish more people would include a link to their own website in their profile at least. There have been lots of times that people have been talking about their work and I've been interested enough to want to see it... only to find that they have left themselves anonymous.

That goes double for people who only seem interested in abusing other developers without letting themselves be seen.

[PoV]

I'll 2nd that. If you're serious about the business, there's no reason not to have the basic pimpage. Sure it's an indulgence, or a stroking of the ego for some, but as Anthony pointed out, it can help you put a person in perspective. I can understand anonimity to a point. In circumstances where you lack confidence in your work situation (looking for work, don't trust your boss), but there are benefits to being forward. If you're at risk of losing a job because of what you said, then either it wasn't worth saying, or the job wasn't worth keeping.

I'm just wondering, do those people have a real job, are born rich, living by they parents? because surely can't live from their games earnings

A little bit of everything, though I have yet to see the "born rich" scenario. Some of us come from the games industry, either working there currently, or "refugees" as we like to call ourselves. To some it's a hobby, and others have bet the farm on this idea of independence. Some like myself have a nice comfy savings they're working from, either from other jobs, other ventures, or their time in the games industry. Some are students, some do contract work, and some are actually profiting and living within their means. Be it through thriftyness, arrangements like parents or roomates, or living in "other" countries where the cost of living is a fraction.

[svero]

Originally Posted by Anthony Flack

That goes double for people who only seem interested in abusing other developers without letting themselves be seen.

Yep! I know I certainly don't appreciate someone cowering under the cloak of anonymity slagging my sales in public based on his own personal guesses. Someone might read that and get the wrong idea. Last I checked, I wasnt sharing sales figures with him.

[Nexic]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Of course it's the gas prices fault that Beetle bomb didn't sell, sorry.

That's a very bold statement for someone who can't possibly have the slightest idea how well the game sold.

Anthony isn't bad either. $1000 total for working on Platypus for 18 months, good going!

I would love to have made Platypus, even if I didn't get paid a single penny. Just for the sheer feeling of achievement... something which I guess you'll never feel.

To respond to the original topic, yes a lot of people do give advice without any real knowledge, and it is a little silly. But I was guilty of this to some extent a couple of years ago. Maybe in the future I'll look back on all the advice I give now, and realise that I didn't know what I was talking about ^.^

[cliffski]

This is one of the reasons that one of the best forums on here is the private one, which I wish was used more often ;(

[Sysiphus]

In my case is 'cause is not usually interesting that my game company(or whatever, I work in several fields) boss sees me here doing stuff for indy projects, etc. Call it crazy, but if u knew what I am talking about you would understand. I cannot explain exactly why, reason why me ppl like me would be leaving it a bit misterious...Is a little of a nonsense, but I tend to not like to deal with more ugly stuff than needed...I guess full time freelancers do take the time and effort to put up a full website and stuff...

[Sysiphus]

Oh, I don't give ever an advice on how to sell your games...Gosh how much I myself would like to know...I wouldn't have seen so many mid sized companies sink(or would I...last one I did know what should have been done, but was unheard, and it proved to be what i thought..), those on which I worked at...If I ever gave an advice here, was only technical about graphics making, and when I see i have some cool trick to give...I like to think they are useful...But in this forum, the level of the artists is really high, luckily.Is not so usual in internet..

But lol, I visit basicly this place to learn from you, developers, people actually doing a good business .
Just I am one of those not putting the website or data, that detail is in common with the kind of person you mention...

or the job wasn't worth keeping

Lol. I have been in a 90% which were so.Problem is when there's no other tech job,(the bosses then tend to know how far they can get with some stuff..) not even as computer fixing. Remember not all countries are the same, not even all towns.(by personal reasons one does not move of town..) And yep, not all personal situations. I think is not needed to give reasons, but sure you know there are differences..
[Edit: I'll keep considering my self as a veteran, I think I have released like 12 or 13 games inside companies(not fair, most of those are for mobiles ), with very small teams(usually 3-5 per project) of never more than ten guys(just freaking productive guys,some been at the hugest companies)...But an absolute dumb novice at indy or shareware in which I consider many of you as total masters ]

EDIT two.But important. Is not that easy to show your graphics if you have signed a mountain of NDAs and crap like that...Nor even with companies that folded and went into courts problems even...You even fear speaking generally at a pub with a friend of it, which is crazy, but one keeps it safe...If you haven't read any, you'd be amazed to read certain of those kind... To me is pretty unsafe to upload anywhere most of the graphics. Neither I have had the time to build gfx for indy stuff more than a very few. And while working part time, is not easy to develop a new mountain of those...
There are other details that justify this but are part of what I don't wish to tell. I just do some small quantity of gfx for some ppl if I see I am interested. Of those very few I made already, I am happy about them, and I see the ppl satisfied... I apologize for those that may look into my profile, as am a regular poster...

[Roman Budzowski]

How many people here is smart enough to listen to good advices?

There was a guy (from time to time still is) that made few hits in a row but was accused of blatant cloning (istead of awarding "hit maker") so he doesn't post that often anymore.

Originally Posted by cliffski

This is one of the reasons that one of the best forums on here is the private one, which I wish was used more often ;(

Yep, where's that? I've read somewhere that you are invited there one you release a game, but then I released two and nothing happened.

all the best
Roman