The end of indie?

[hippocoder]

Portals have dedicated teams that can clone your game within a couple of months. This means they never need to actually take your game, and if they did, they'd replace it with their own brand if it sold well.

Take supermarkets: first they take popular items then gradually replace the popular items with own-brand stuff, and slowly remove the originals. This irked me no end as I could see it happening to stuff I liked.

Well, we can't fight this. I don't see any way I can make enough revenue to compete with portals.

[luggage]

This has happened throughout the history of video games. Yet development companies still survive.

[Jamie W]

While I think most of you guys (and ladies) here are awesome, for making this indie malarky 'work' for you; I do think things are looking a bit grim, and they're getting grimmer by the minute.

For me personally, when I consider the sheer amount of time and energy and all I put in to the development of my game (it has been *intense*); I gave it everything. But when I think how poor the returns are; it sucks. Well, no; it's not that it sucks; nothing ever really sucks, it's just how it is ... but:

You get the feeling that it's like running round and round on a little hamster wheel, and no matter how much skill, ability, know-how and creative geninus you have, it all adds up to nothing, and you're running like crazy to stand still.

Then I've just seen James May (Top Gear if you're in the UK) on TV, jetting about in some top of the line, jet fighter (Eurofighter I think); having the most amazing experience ever; and probably getting paid wads and wads of cash for doing so.

Clearly, there's something not right here, and I think they mind set of work hard(er) and be great at what you do and give it your all and it will all work out ... is a big far lie.

I've always been a great believer, in following your heart and it will all come good, kinda like a faith in life itself. But when you keep doing what you've been doing and it's not working anymore; you need to change.

Time to get off the hamster wheel ... and that's a good thing.

[siread]

To suggest that indies will die out implies that there is a limit to imagination. Sure there are clones of clones but there are always new game ideas. Sure there are more and more indie games of professional quality but the tools we use are improving all the time allowing us to stay within touching distance of the pros. Sure the console companies have started their own download channels but that opens opportunities for us to reach out to a bigger audience.

Jamie, Qwak is a really nice game. Don't get disheartened if this is your first foray into publishing your own games. I didn't go full-time until New Star Soccer 3 (my 6th game).

[PlayMGE]

Indies can compete on programming and ideas, that's not the problem. The 2 areas where it's much harder to even the playfield, is marketing and media creation. But I am starting to notice an obvious "me too" look to alot of portal games. Obviously being done by the same teams. This only helps indie products in the long run.

[Grey Alien]

To survive as an Indie, as in many businesses, you need to be at the top of your game. That's it. Plenty of Indies are doing fine but they are experienced and make the best games.

[puggy]

There will always be indies, becuase there will always be people to develop games. Some do it for money, some do it for free.

Those who do it for money seem to be finding it harder with clones being made and visual demands increasing. That dosn't mean good indie games arn't being released (kudos for example) but it is getting harder. This can be overcome by several things, spending money on contract work, banding together with several people (not always the ideal thing as it can create problems), taking a long time to make the game or using tools.

I have to say the tools section is a bit lacking. For example a 3d modeling package is a tool, but i hate most of them, there all generic, aimed at those professional modelers. What i would like to see is specific 3d modeling tools. For example one geared for making characters for games. One geared to making buildings. Click and plug style making it easy for the modeling inept to make models.

Game engines are another area, but a harder one to sort out. So most games need to do specific things and making engine to do everything is impossible. You could go the simple route and make a 3d engine or the harder route and make a total game engine. First one takes the programer ages because the game code has to be done, second makes a generic looking game like several others. I have do idea how to go about doing an inbetween version so i'm not going to bother trying unless you release the source code, but you don't make money that way (as in 10 days after release everyone will have access to the code).

One big area most indies forget and could provide a much bigger marketing area is the language area, and i don't mean c++ or delphi. How many have though to add chinese, or russian, maybe a little language of love (french)? There are tools out there to translate english to other languages, i'm borrowing a friends work computer which has systrans on it and translating starpeace into 13 languages. Think of all the poor non english speaking people out there starved of decent games to play. You may only be able to sell the game for $1-2 to each chinese player, but it's still more sales to you and there are a lot of chinese people out there. It dosn't take long to translate a file and adding a little bit to the code to be able to use a txt file to get text dosn't take long.

[MerscomMan]

Originally Posted by hippocoder

Portals have dedicated teams that can clone your game within a couple of months. This means they never need to actually take your game, and if they did, they'd replace it with their own brand if it sold well.

Take supermarkets: first they take popular items then gradually replace the popular items with own-brand stuff, and slowly remove the originals. This irked me no end as I could see it happening to stuff I liked.

Well, we can't fight this. I don't see any way I can make enough revenue to compete with portals.

I don't see examples of this at all. The games the portals develop internally usually push the envelope, I haven't seen any of the major portals (Big Fish, Real, Reflexive or Oberon) put out generic clones. BFG created the Hidden Object genre and the Mystery Case Files games always seem to have the highest production values, not cheap clones from Somalia. Reflexive's titles like the Big Kahuna series, The Great Tree, etc., always seem to push the envelope. In my opinion, Oberon's Murder Mystery Club was the best casual game last year. So, I don't see how you can make the argument that the portals are using dedicated teams to create clones (though I will agree they are selling a lot of clones from indie developers on their sites).

[GolfHacker]

Originally Posted by MerscomMan

I don't see examples of this at all.

Agreed.

In my case, when PopCap approached me about buying the rights to Fashion Cents a couple of years ago, and I turned them down, they didn't go out and clone my game. Granted PopCap is not a portal, but they do publish games by other developers and they have their own internal development team. I don't think they would have even bothered about cloning it - typically, clones never do as well as the originals, and it just makes the developer look like a me-too developer instead of an innovator.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of Bejewelled and Zuma clones from indie and non-indie developers...

[Jack Norton]

Originally Posted by hippocoder

Well, we can't fight this. I don't see any way I can make enough revenue to compete with portals.

Well, I would be surprised if you alone could make same REVENUE as a portal (a few millions $$$)

[dannthr]

The difference is that Technics OWNS Panasonic.

You see, there are a LOT of companies that sell their products through proxy companies in order to tap into smaller, cheaper, more generic markets with the same tech without losing their rep; and there's companies that sell their stuff to distributors to put their own labels on.

The grocery stores are a great example of that.

[Desktop Gaming]

I don't see any way I can make enough revenue to compete with portals.

I wouldn't consider my year a total loss if I made only $500,000. Reflexive might.

[BIGZIPZ]

I do feel bad for Jamie because I bought QWAK on the GBA last year, and have played the PC version of his game and it is GENUINELY a better game than the majority of the games on the Big Fish Games Top 10 in every genre.

It frustrates me as an ex-EA employee that quirky games like QWAK which are fun to play, bomb because people want to play yet another match-3 and yet another hidden object game. How dull and depressing is this?

Another example of a company / indie who has not had as much success as they deserve is Pi Eye Games. They have not released a SINGLE BAD GAME in the history of the company. Every single game is brilliant and better than anything in the Top 10's on any portal.

I just feel so bad for the Jamie's and the Pi Eye's of this industry and slightly sick in my stomach when I go to the portals and see the crap that people are buying.

[BIGZIPZ]

In fact, I am going to put my money where my mouth is right now and buy a copy of QWAK for the PC.

Beats playing "Jewel Quest 3" I guess.

[princec]

Originally Posted by GolfHacker

Agreed.

In my case, when PopCap approached me about buying the rights to Fashion Cents a couple of years ago, and I turned them down, they didn't go out and clone my game. Granted PopCap is not a portal, but they do publish games by other developers and they have their own internal development team. I don't think they would have even bothered about cloning it - typically, clones never do as well as the originals, and it just makes the developer look like a me-too developer instead of an innovator.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of Bejewelled and Zuma clones from indie and non-indie developers...

Ahem. Betty's Beer Bar anyone?

Cas

[MerscomMan]

Originally Posted by princec

Ahem. Betty's Beer Bar anyone?

Cas

That was developed by Mystery Studios, an indie company located in Uruguay.

[Cevo70]

I believe there are many people who have their heads on straight (call me an optimist) and and like any "indie" industry it's going to have it's frustrations.

On the bright side, this community is constantly releasing shockingly good titles that break the mold.

Making a true living (and a luxurious one at that) off making games is only for those who have found success and continue to. Others still have to get there. I believe that to be a normal situation.

I do agree though that the portal issue is a serious one. But the more we can cross-support each other, play/purchase each others games, promote other games on our own site, etc - the happier we'll all be.

There also seems to be a growth of awareness and more people dedicate themselves to reviewing and previewing indies and spreading the word.

Just trying to see some of the bright side.

[aiursrage2k]

Maybe specialize. I really liked Zombie Shooter, cant imagine a portal cloning it and being as good. Even if they do, they can just release zombie shooter2 which will be better anyways

[elias4444]

Well, I must say, Qwak looks like a great game to me. I haven't tried it out yet, as I'm on a Mac and rarely boot into Windows if I don't have to.

Get the Mac version out, seriously! It'll boost your sales and visibility. Also keep in mind that it usually takes time to pull an audience to your brand. Remember, "it takes about 10 years to become an overnight success." But I must agree, that from my own experience, if you want money now, then you'll want to go work for someone else who's already spent the ten years or so becoming a success and can afford to hire you.

[stichintime]

I think the key is to focus on marketing. Marketing like there is no tomorrow. Maybe for every 2 hours of making the game, 1 hour of marketing it. I don't know if that's realistic or would much fun, but maybe...that's what it takes.

[GolfHacker]

Originally Posted by BIGZIPZ

It frustrates me as an ex-EA employee that quirky games like QWAK which are fun to play, bomb because people want to play yet another match-3 and yet another hidden object game. How dull and depressing is this?

I just feel so bad for the Jamie's and the Pi Eye's of this industry and slightly sick in my stomach when I go to the portals and see the crap that people are buying.

See, that's what stumps me. In almost all of the correspondence I get from my Fashion Cents customers, they usually tell me they love and appreciate the game because it isn't another match-3. So obviously there are a lot of people who don't want to play more match-3 games. And yet the portals for the most part won't touch FC because it doesn't fit into one of their molds. So obviously they aren't listening too closely to their customers... if I could just reach these people and get my game in front of them, I'd make a killing on sales.

[Maupin]

Originally Posted by BIGZIPZ

I do feel bad for Jamie because I bought QWAK on the GBA last year, and have played the PC version of his game and it is GENUINELY a better game than the majority of the games on the Big Fish Games Top 10 in every genre.

With no offense to Jamie, I don't find Qwak comparable to most games on the Big Fish Games top ten. It's a game that appeals to a small subset of platform game and retro game fans due to its simple graphics and extremely busy screens. I'm a HUGE fan of platform games and retro games and cute graphics but all the falling fruit and spikes in such a cramped space made the game too difficult for me.

Succeeding as an indie - i.e. making money - means you have to consider a market for your games in the design phase.

[Jamie W]

Originally Posted by BIGZIPZ

I do feel bad for Jamie because I bought QWAK on the GBA last year, and have played the PC version of his game and it is GENUINELY a better game than the majority of the games on the Big Fish Games Top 10 in every genre.

Hey thanks!!

It's very nice to be apprecieated.

One of the problems with Qwak, is that a lot of it's depth isn't immediately apparent. It's kinda 'burried' and only comes out when you get further in to the game (all the game-play mechanics, secret hidden bonuses, tricks and secret sections to levels, etc).

But in terms of marketing, that's a BIG mistake ... but then ... I think I got a *LOT* wrong in the marketing department.

It's all just lessons though, and no matter how much you mess it up, it's just experience, and learning what works and what doesn't, and identifying your weak points (in my case, marketing) so you can address them.

I do feel a bit bummed out by it all, and losing faith in the creative process; and feeling it's bad to go all out and do your very best; because you get no reward for doing so; which all leaves you feeling a little non-plussed..

Probably a lot of people here are familiar with that feeling!?

What makes it worse, is that I know how much I've put in to the game; it's not been a quick job (several years) and I've done everything myself. So lots of going through the mill, an emotional journey if you like. Sure, it sucks that games made in a few months, with like 10% the energy and effort put in to their development; will probably sell more, cos they meet current customer expectation; but despite all that, you know; I don't regret making Qwak; it's something I had to do ... and I've learned an awful lot from doing so.

Originally Posted by BIGZIPZ

I just feel so bad for the Jamie's and the Pi Eye's of this industry and slightly sick in my stomach when I go to the portals and see the crap that people are buying.

Yeah!

I know the guy behind PiEyeGames pretty well, we shared the same office for a while back in the Gremlin days (he had a full size defender arcade machine in there with us - YAY!). He's a really great guy; and his games are awesome too; and he defo deserves to do well.

[Jamie W]

Originally Posted by Maupin

Succeeding as an indie - i.e. making money - means you have to consider a market for your games in the design phase.

Exactly; and that means abandoning the creative process ...

Not so much making games for the love of it, and trusting your own gut feeling, your own creative impulse; rather ...

It's making a game out of an expectation to make money; so it's not heart-felt anymore, it's disconnected from the creative process.

Not that any way is the *right* way, and we all need to eat, and party tokens (money) to do fun stuff in life etc.

[Grey Alien]

With no offense to Jamie, I don't find Qwak comparable to most games on the Big Fish Games top ten

Agreed, and again no offense to Jamie. I'd have said that before I was an employee too. Qwak and the successful casual titles are simply not the same genre so can't even be compared directly. Perhaps Qwak and Braid or N+ should be compared as they are all platformers (albeit very different), or Qwak and the Ozzie games (which have done pretty well for casual platformers)?

[Maupin]

Originally Posted by Jamie W

Exactly; and that means abandoning the creative process ...

Not really. One's creativity is limited, perhaps, but not useless. If you don't know for sure that your game will do well (either from gameplay testing or experience) you should probably put your own spin on a genre or mechanic or story or topic or whatever that you know has a sizable market. (I myself have a very unique idea for a match-3 game. In fact I think it's kind of funny subverting casual gamers with creative stories and gameplay twists that are way beyond anything the watered down portal filler games attempt.)

In the same way that Qwak is a sort of Jumpman/Wizard/Mario Brothers descendant, and would have done well when those games were very marketable, you have to adapt to a current market. Supercow did very well as a modern casual platform game. Noitu Love 2 sold lots of copies to the more "hardcore" crowd. Jake mentioned Braid which (I've heard) was extremely creative for a platformer.

[Bmc]

Originally Posted by Maupin

Not really. One's creativity is limited

I wouldn't even say that, more limits mean more opportunities to be extra creative while solving the problem at hand ... in this case a game.

I think the biggest problem with Qwak is that it would of made a much better flash game, as these types of platform games are still quite popular in that environment. I would also assume that developing in Flash would have cut the development time a fair bit, making it more likely that the developer would stand a chance to see some type of return.

As a side note, you can still aim to make money and put all of your heart into while doing so. And in fact being able to make money doing something you love is not a luxury that everyone has, so if you have to bend your principles even a little it is worth it.

[Chris Evans]

I don't think it's portals and cloning that's making it tough for indies, unless of course you're developing those type of casual games.

It's just that it's been really tough the last 3-4 years for indies to get even modest exposure compared to the early 2000s. Portals played a factor but the downfall of download sites on the PC side is what hurt indies the most. Download sites used to be a very straight-forward way for indies to get their game out there. You didn't need to be a marketing genius, you just had to spend some time setting up your submission info and send it out to various sites. Doing this along with a press release and other minor marketing, even average indie games could get decent exposure (hundreds of downloads a day).

So yes eventually portals started to eat into the download sites' audience, but the download sites are mostly to blame for their own downfall. Download.com mismanaged itself to hell. It put game mod updates along with new game releases, so new indie games got buried quickly. It's submission process became a mess and kept changing every 6 months. As for the other download sites, PAD files became the downfall, IMO. Sure it was useful for developers at first but it meant every single download site started to look the same after a couple of years. Their game listings became massive. This wouldn't be so bad if they knew how to harness their large library, but instead they essentially became giant link farms with just a few broad categories. Useless for players because they can't really find anything and useless for developers because they would be lucky to get one download a month from these giant link farms.

There you go, the extinction of download sites and the only reliable way for indies to get exposure on the PC-side. This is why Mac games have typically done better for small Indies the last several years because there's still several no-brainer places where you can submit your game for guaranteed exposure (Apple.com, VersionTracker and etc).

To survive on the PC nowadays, you need to have a top-tier indie game and posses some marketing savvy; and you still might not make it. I know some people will say, "Good! That's how it should be!". But I think it makes a big difference if someone relatively new to making indie games can sell 40-80 copies a month instead of just 4-8. While you can't live off selling 40-80 copies in most countries, it's enough to keep you motivated and give you something to build on. This is how it was 6-8 years ago.

The reason I think it's gloomy for indies right now is that a lot of new guys are only able to sell 5-10 (often times less) copies a month with direct sales. This just kills motivation and a lot of people find it hard to justify spending another 6-18 months developing a new game. The indie spirit dies before going through all the cycles of trial and error.

The upside is that it's easier to make games nowdays. But it's harder to get them played unless you're targeting the casual audience or a closed system.

[defanual]

I do think the biggest problem for indie's is lack of business, marketing and advertising skills as well as me-too/AAA clones or over original (hard to market) games.

For instance, most of the success stories quoted/spoken about here are in some way or form I've heard/read about from many different sources, but other then that, I never heard about QUAK or pieyegames (apart from here). And I'll admit, it's the same in most cases for my own games upto now (and rightfully so).

Remember, it doesn't matter how good your commercial game or product is, if no one (enough for you to be happy with the sales) knows about it, it WILL fail. If the product is bad and everyone knows about, it at the least has a %50 more chance of selling or bringing revenue then your great product does. Think about the amount of times people have been compelled to post about a game because of it's themes or controversy (such as the flash suicide game or that one with the diet pills, those must have got some ad revenue if the creators were smart enough), rather then it's gameplay (if it even has any), most indies games don't get that kind of free indirect publicity because there either marketed poorly or just aren't remarkable to speak about (good isn't remarkable, good is just good).

Indie success seems to come when it's niche (no point doing a standard soccer game, EA and Konami have that covered) and marketed well, of course, the less niche it is, the easier it is to market (Braid, mario style platform game with time shifting in story and gameplay mechanic). Finding the balance seems to be part of the secret formula.

I also think that just using the traditional, old and expected methods of selling / marketing download games are unwise too (as with the download.com example above). You need to be thinking of new ways to sell and tell people about your game as regularly as you knock out those game ideas. How you sell, where you sell and your execution of selling are as important as how good the game is itself when it comes to commercial games.

Those are my theories from experience, long observations and equally long research anyway. I'll practice what I preach and try to put these into practice (as well as some of the wise words from others including your fine selves!) for 2009 and give feedback where valid

[puggy]

After reading this thread and several magazines, i realised something.

now i don't know if it's like this in the usa (and if i go of in a tangent, it's new year and i'm slightly drunk) but in the uk pc magazines are about 200-300 pages whereas pc games mags are 100-200 with and extra £1 to the cost. While they have the 4-5 20 meg indie games on the double sided 9 gig odd dvd. ever get the feeling your getting screwd? How hard would it be to add a few pages about a load of small time indie games? what fuss would it be to add demo's of a load of small indie games?

If the mags spent a small fraction of time adding some info about the small time games not only would they add value for money but help the small time players. then again it seems future publishing seems to own a lot of pc stuff here in the uk so it's only hopeful thinking