DRM Wrapper for games

[Spaiz]

Ok, I'm sure this question been here for many times, let's discuss one more time. We are looking for DRM solution, whic one is the best, is http://www.siliconrealms.com/ Software Passport good? And is it hard to wrap a game developed by others? Any problems here or this is just as putting exe to RaR archive (for example)?

[tfowers]

I don't know - I'm looking into DRM right now too. The only "hands-off" DRM I can find seems to be Trymedia. This is where it just wraps compiled code. It seems that most DRMs you have to rewire your the game to talk to an external library. This seems especially prohibitive to mac ports. I'm developing in flash, and getting an executable for mac is easy, but if I have to make library calls or includes for mac, it'll require a whole new IDE, not to mention another computer.

Trymedia probably don't have a DRM solution without using their payment service. If you can get a hold of them.

Sorry - this probably isn't super helpful. Good Luck!

[cliffski]

people code a completed game, then worry about DRM the day before it ships. If you are going to use some DRM, see it as a part of the game, a part that requires time and effort.
If your game is massively pirated, the 100% effort of your game is useless, so isn't it worth taking 2-5% of your dev effort into making sure the other 95-7% of it was worthwhile?
I code my own online activation system. I'm a big believer in self-coded DRM, because it means the guys who go to crack your game have no idea what they are dealing with.

[Spaiz]

Originally Posted by cliffski

people code a completed game, then worry about DRM the day before it ships. If you are going to use some DRM, see it as a part of the game, a part that requires time and effort.
If your game is massively pirated, the 100% effort of your game is useless, so isn't it worth taking 2-5% of your dev effort into making sure the other 95-7% of it was worthwhile?
I code my own online activation system. I'm a big believer in self-coded DRM, because it means the guys who go to crack your game have no idea what they are dealing with.

Yes, this is good, but what happens, when you give out your games to other portals? They will wrap it with their DRM.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I think cliffski is more of the self-publishing kind of guy

[cliffski]

Originally Posted by Spaiz

Yes, this is good, but what happens, when you give out your games to other portals? They will wrap it with their DRM.

many portals I deal with allow me to keep my games DRM.

[Jack Norton]

If you're lazy or inexperienced about DRM like me I recommend armadillo though, since at least prevents casual piracy. Better than nothing

[Kola256]

If you are looking for a prestige DRM, you should contact Yummy Interactive. Their new GameShield should be ready in a couple of weeks. You may contact them and they will find a good solution for you (as for me did).

See the list of partners: http://www.yummy.net/Partners/Publishers.aspx

[JGOware]

There has to be some other DRM solutons? Any updated recommendations? Thanks.

[JGOware]

Originally Posted by Kola256

If you are looking for a prestige DRM, you should contact Yummy Interactive. Their new GameShield should be ready in a couple of weeks. You may contact them and they will find a good solution for you (as for me did).

See the list of partners: http://www.yummy.net/Partners/Publishers.aspx

http://www.gameshield.com/Products/ProductMatrix.aspx

I could be missing something, but it appears to cost around $5000.00 to use their system. I was looking for something a bit more indie friendly.

[ATL]

I wouldn't bother with DRM in the slightest.

Crackers crack things either for the challenge or just to be the first group to pre your game before all other groups. Some of the guys are extremely talented and in most cases circumvent any drm quicker than it will have been applied! Look at something like Securom, can't give you a figure on how much it costs but, EA used it in Spore, which was pre'd in less than 24 hours of release! Likewise, even something like Steam has been fully cracked and as quick as it gets updated, it gets cracked.

As for coding your own, again wouldn't bother; I forgot which protection it was (StarForce, SecuRom or SafeDisc) had its internal workings reverse engineered and published (the document ran well into the hundred pages) by a cracking group (think it was Razor1911 or Reloaded) a while ago. If you manage to get hold of the link let me know, take a good look at it and if there's one thing in the document you don't understand, don't even bother about contemplating rolling your own. These lads reverse engineer down to the driver level for fun without batting an eyelid, don't underestimate them.

ATL.

[JGOware]

Crackers, hackers, etc, are the least of my concerns. They don't buy software anyway. Just looking for a reasonably inexpensive way to stop (or delay as long as possible) the casual transfer from friend to friend or office mate to office mate.

[cliffski]

Originally Posted by ATL

Crackers crack things either for the challenge or just to be the first group to pre your game before all other groups.

This is bollocks. If it was true. They would release a version that just unlocked one extra part of the game, or a vide showing them cracking and playing the full thing. Or they would just be content knowing they had beaten it. They don't do any of this, they crack the whole game, release it and go to huge efforts to then distribute it globally to ensure they cause as much economic damage to the people who spent years making the thing.
They are scum, and their rationalisations to defend what they do are pathetic.

Originally Posted by ATL

Some of the guys I know in the cracking groups are extremely talented and in most cases circumvent any drm quicker than it will have been applied!

OMGZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can break your windows faster than you can have replacements fitted. truly I am more talented than the window fitters!

breaking something is always trivially easier than making it. This is why crackers crack software rather than writing it. It's all they are capable of. Creating whole games is difficult, requires patience, organisation, creativity and dedication. They don't have any of these qualities, which is why they sit in moms basement and crack other peoples hard work, all the time thinking they are some sort of sad pathetic heroes.

[ATL]

Just looking for a reasonably inexpensive way to stop (or delay as long as possible) the casual transfer from friend to friend or office mate to office mate.

On what level?
The sharing of serial numbers: Need online drm to validate serial number every so often, otherwise try to put the buyers full name in there, that'll stop mass sharing on websites as people won't fancy their names splatted with it.
Copying and pasting the installed application to other computers: Keep it simple and take a hash of the HD serial number and write that into the application on install.

This is bollocks. If it was true...

Whether or not you choose to believe is up to you (-: but the whole point in the scene is not to mass-pirate a game, if they wanted to do that they'd seed/upload the cracks themselves, it's for nothing more than respect from mainly the other groups and also people who download the pirated software. The greater the challenge the greater the respect.

and their rationalisations to defend what they do are pathetic

Well, I can't argue too much with this.

breaking something is always trivially easier than making it.

They aren't breaking your software, the very opposite; they meticulously take it apart piece by piece and put it back together perfectly with a single part missing. When they're finished with it, they understand your protection better than you do. Try loading up something like IDA (perhaps the most used cracking software for the pros) on your own protection and try cracking it (IDA is only an analyser, you'll have to use a seperate debugger). As much as you might hate the things they do (and rightly so), it'll give you a new respect for their technical ability.

If you want to hamper efforts then get familiar with sites such as this. Although there are many ways which have yet to be done which will make a crackers life miserable to the point of turning taking on a challenge into an embarrassment. But for you to use the techniques you ideally need to know the tools they use to crack your products just as well as they do, otherwise you won't know what is difficult to crack. Ideally every time you tweak the protection you should try to reverse engineer it at that point and see where the weaknesses are. Granted, it's not very viable with time, especially in the casual developers market , but if you don't at least reverse engineer the cracks they produce to see where the weakness was then then there's no point in even putting protection in there in the first place!

ATL.

[cliffski]

ideally I don't bother with any of that. ideally they get caught and prosecuted under the DMCA or equivalent laws.
This is what needs to happen. Not better DRM, better enforcement of existing law.

[HarryBalls]

You may also want to check out softwrap.com

[Jack Norton]

I would stay away from softwrap. Terrible customer support and minimum withdrawal is $500 (no other vendor has that). Also, you can't remove products once you put them online...

[Grey Alien]

My thoughts on Software Passport may be useful:

http://greyaliengames.com/blog/quick-armadillo-summary/

http://greyaliengames.com/blog/softw...ort-armadillo/

[Spore Man]

Cliffski, your attitude aside, the fact is there's a whole "underworld" in cracking, where yes, little 16 yer old pirates DO think they are bad-ass for cracking first, etc, etc. All their BS that sounds ridiculously unimportant to a working man like yourself, unfortunately IS the lay of the land for them. They won't earn their "street cred" by showing a video.

(Know your enemy!)

[cliffski]

I'm sure they all think they are cool. Tough shit. Throw them in a cell for a few weeks, see how cool they feel then.

[magallanes]

Originally Posted by ATL

On what level?
The sharing of serial numbers: Need online drm to validate serial number every so often, otherwise try to put the buyers full name in there, that'll stop mass sharing on websites as people won't fancy their names splatted with it.
Copying and pasting the installed application to other computers: Keep it simple and take a hash of the HD serial number and write that into the application on install.

I agree with it, and the best part it is fairly easy to program (a couple of hours are enough), hence is cheap.