Is Vista Going To Dampen Indie Gaming?

[Arthur]

Good tips, Cliffski, thanks.

Ironically, just as some of this Vista panic was starting to rub off on me, we verified what was stated earlier in this thread regarding LUA access to Program Files in XP vs. Vista... with Virtual Villagers, at least, LUA accounts in XP prevented the game from being saved correctly. It worked quite well in Vista, however, even allowing multiple LUA accounts to share the installation quite distinctly and gracefully.

I have not decided yet what school I am going to be subscribing to: the "get ahead of everything, proactively fix all my games, and gain a competetive advantage" school, or the "wait and see what needs fixin'" school.

Here's a question that I am not quite clear on regarding the ESRB and certification/signing issue: If a game is to be rated, so that it will be treated well in Windows, the game will also have to be digitally signed. It would need to be the installer that is actually signed, wouldn't it? Would this not shift the burdon of the digital signing from the dev to whoever is propping the game (ie; portals)?

[jankoM]

What happens to things like Java Webstart or igLoader, OSAKit?

[arcadetown]

LUA accounts in XP prevented the game from being saved correctly. It worked quite well in Vista, however, even allowing multiple LUA accounts to share the installation quite distinctly and gracefully.

Very good to hear. I hope that the 40% failure rate I saw using an LUA on XP is just XP related.

Here's a question that I am not quite clear on regarding the ESRB and certification/signing issue: If a game is to be rated, so that it will be treated well in Windows, the game will also have to be digitally signed. It would need to be the installer that is actually signed, wouldn't it? Would this not shift the burdon of the digital signing from the dev to whoever is propping the game (ie; portals)?

My understanding is signing continues as the standard thing that happens when the portal creates the installer. While ESRB is something that is assigned by a setting in the Vista related config file which is to be installed by the installer. When a game is ESRB rated that rating becomes good for the game no matter what distribution partner it comes from (i.e. all sites can use that rating).

[arcadetown]

What happens to things like Java Webstart or igLoader, OSAKit?

My understanding is all activex will have the typical prompt it has now plus will be prompted to provide the admin login to be able to install since users use an LUA. In addition Flash is no longer pre-installed with windows unless by the oem, so Flash will also be subject to this restriction before it can be installed. So not only is it hurting downloads, web plays are most likely also affected. Can anyone confirm if this is 100% correct?

[Bad Sector]

Wow, a good thing i've played so many times with JavaScript-based animations and effects. And just think that some of my programmer friends said that it was a waste of time :-P.

Although this sounds way too much a disastrous scenario to me. I don't think that that's the case and while i personally have only XP, i know people who have Vista and haven't heard anything negative from them yet...

[val]

If indie isn't used to read MSDN then Vista kills indie. All games written on exotic frameworks will be removed from sales.

You see that PopCap is happy with Vista launch, since Vista helps good-written games to sell better, and bad-written games to sell worse.

There are not so many problems actually, you just need to rewrite code in every game you ever launched. Professionals do it, indies don't.

In a year or two all indies will accept the Vista rules. But maybe indies need this evil Vista to understand something right now?

[Tertsi]

I'm curious, are there any lesser than PopCap, Reflexive etc. type of game companies who are going to be getting an ESRB rating because of Vista?

[zoombapup]

Anyone know how much an ESRB rating would cost?

[Indiepath]

What happens to things like Java Webstart or igLoader, OSAKit?

In believe Vista represents a massive opportunity for IGL, the security is complimentary and our ability to download, install and launch from a webpage goes a long way to steamlining the install process and offers a web-based alternative to the game explorer (see pjio when I re-launch).

[Indiepath]

Anyone know how much an ESRB rating would cost?

Last time I was quoted (June 2006) it was $2,500

[jetro]

AFAIK, you're supposed to store stuff in \Documents and Settings\<User Name>\Application Data\Your Company Name\Your Game Name\Version Number\.

What if high score table of game should be shared between different users of same computer (which has LUAs in place)? Is there any standard location (other than some temp dir, if even that) for windows where all users can write and which is thus "safe" place to keep shared data?

[Andy]

Last time I was quoted (June 2006) it was $2,500

2.5K for looking at the game? Yeah. Nice "non-profit" as they mention on their website.

[James Sutherland]

What if high score table of game should be shared between different users of same computer (which has LUAs in place)? Is there any standard location (other than some temp dir, if even that) for windows where all users can write and which is thus "safe" place to keep shared data?

There's also an "All Users" application data folder that gets shared to everybody. I'm not entirely sure how permissions work with that, but I'd imagine any user write to it. On XP, it's generally in "C:\Documents and Settings\All User", but as with all these folders you should use something like SHGetSpecialFolderLocation to find them.

[Bad Sector]

Hm, another question that pops into my mind...

From all windows installations that i've seen so far, very very few had an "administrator" password set up. In all of them, you could simply use the "administrator" account without a password. Most users seem to have their systems set up like this.

What's the case on these systems? The "authorize dialog" will popup and the users will just press enter or it won't appear at all?

[sphinx]

What happens to things like Java Webstart or igLoader, OSAKit?

OSAKit is working just fine with Vista!

[Chris Evans]

I'm surprised to see so many "the sky is falling!?" comments.

If there's one thing that you can always count on it's that things will always change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. You should always be prepared for both. Spouting out a bunch of hyperbole doesn't do you any good.

The way I see it, LUA has been around on the Mac for awhile now and Mac users still download, install, and buy Shareware/Indie software. It's not the end of the world. On Vista, backward compatibility with older software may be a concern initially but any widespread incompatibilities with XP-compatible software will most likely be addressed by MS. After all, it wouldn't just be small little Indie game developers affected, there are tons of shareware and commercial business software that would be affected. I'm sure groups like ASP would raise some noise if there were some major incompatibilities with XP software on Vista. Also, you can always offer a Vista patch for your older games.

As for the ESRB rating, if it becomes a major issue that seriously affects small/solo game developers, we can petition them (ESRB) to provide "shareware" pricing for companies under 5 employees or something. Get some well known groups behind it like Garage Games or IGDA, or whatever. Point is, it's not the end of the world. Indie gaming will not go instinct. You can always try something. Besides, Indie gaming will never be completely dead until both Windows and Mac become closed platforms like a console. We're very far away from that at the moment.

[ZuluBoy]

Here is a web page about Vista application compatibility:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/win.../aa904987.aspx

On the same page, you will find a useful presentation: Five Ways to Ensure Your Application Will Be Compatible.

[slickmax]

this is what I say:
indie developers could potentially get their games published by microsoft

"Since the Game Explorer is also inexplicably hard coded into Vista and `secured' from any modification, nobody can presumably fix its problems or otherwise augment it other than Microsoft. Considering the effort Microsoft must have invested in making the Game Explorer this onerous and immutable, it seems plausible that it was intended as a place holder for a subsequent game service offering from Microsoft."

if not, who cares? I never use my start menu, I only get a desktop shortcut. this is not as big a problem as some make it out to be. All the same I view microsoft as the enemy.

[Indiepath]

After much blood, sweat and tears I'm happy to say that igL v3.0 works perfectly on Vista in IE7 Protected Mode - games are downloaded, sandboxed and launched without triggering the UAC elevation dialogs.

[DtD]

I don't think they will stop us the slightest bit.

Besides indies and home brewers (of games not alcohol ) always find a way around things like this.

~DtD

[Dan MacDonald]

Nice tilde's.

[soniCron]

I dunno. I've seen better.

[lennard]

Since I am working on this... what is a windows session? It's the first thing that I saw in the compatibility list and I'm not sure that it's a thing I've dealt with before.