Getting Starting

[Machu]

Well, this is my first post here, and I'm going to ask what could very well be the most "newbie" question: how do I start out?

More specifically, how long does this take? If only takes a month or two, I'll dedicate those months to game-making, but if it's gonna take a year, I'll need to focus on getting a "day job", and I'm running into problems with that. Have any of you guys gone directly into game-making without needing such a job as flipping burgers or stocking shelves? It'd be awful nice if I could succeed entirely from my own efforts and focus on what I love best as soon as possible.

Now, a bit about myself: I'm currently 19, and still don't have a job. I do know an awful lot of programming from school and books, as well as experience with a very basic, limited game engine. I'm sure I could learn a higher tech engine, as I learn easily; in school, I honestly learned more from textbooks than teachers. So, besides the time needed to find and learn such an engine, I'll also have to learn/research how to sell things online. I guess the most important question here is "How long will it take to set up online sales?", since obviously the length of game production depends on my game.

[george]

I've been in your situation for some years now. I am 21 years old, and I started in this business when I was about 16. It's tough man, so tough... I have worked for over 4 years now, both games and apps. Again, I need to say this so you will understand, it is tough... But I never gave up, and here I am... I make about $500-$1000 a month, which is not bad for a small indie, but not good for living in reality (especially here in the USA). By the end of this year I have a feeling I might actually move a step up and be more successful. So, I say never give up.

I never had a real job. I quit college. And just kept working at this business of mine. I am doing software so it is easier than selling games, in a lot of respects. So what am I trying to tell you? It's hard as hell to succeed. You are not going to make much money for a long time. Unless you come up with some great new idea, which you probably won't.

It's so tough because:

1) There is so much competition
2) There is so much supperior competition
3) There is so much marketing competition
4) You are new, you have no real experience whatsoever

To be an indie, you are:

1) A developer
2) A marketer
3) Customer support
4) And everything else
5) And again, you have no real experience whatsoever

My advice:

1) Get a day job - you need income no matter what. Even if your parents are supporting you... You need money to grow your business (whether it be books, software, web space, etc.)

2) Read read read read read Learn learn learn learn as much as you can about everything related to the business. There are so many articles on marketing and programming. A good place to start:
http://www.dexterity.com/articles/

3) Be real - don't live in a dream, you are not going to become id software in 5 months or even 5 years.

4) Never give up - if you really love game developing and dream of doing this your whole life, then go for it. The difference between those who succeed and those who fail - the ones who failed gave up, and the ones who succeeded didn't. Simple as that.

In summary: go for your dream, but be responsible and realistic. Get a day job, and at night practice for your future job of game development. I never got a job and I quit school, and I have to struggle like hell (thank god my parents support me). Sure, I am on the verge of succeeding, after years of hard work. I never gave up.

I hope this helps you...

[svero]

You won't be able to make a living at it for the first few years unless you're exceptionally talented and lucky.

[James Gwertzman]

I strongly recommend getting a "real" job first so you basically get someone else to pay for your education. Then once you feel you know what you're doing, devote yourself to making games full-time.

I look at what we're doing here at Sprout Games, and the fact that my partners and I all worked full-time in the professional software industry first for many years is a big advantage. Not only do we know how to build software following professional development techniques, but we also had extensive contacts to draw on and know how to navigate the system. I worked at Microsoft for 5 years (as both a program manager and in online marketing) before leaving to start a game company, and that experience was invaluable.

Not to mention that you'll be able to save up money so that when you do decide to go it alone you'll have ample resources to do so. Just to give you a few other examples:

Rick & Tony Goodman (who founded Ensemble Studios and made Age of Empies as their first game) ran a computer consulting company first for many years and sold it before going into games.

Gabe Newell (who founded Valve Software) worked at Microsoft first for 13 years in the Windows group. Many of the people he brought with him to start Valve he met at Microsoft.

Dr's Ray & Greg (who founded BioWare) were doctors in Canada, and used the money from their (lucrative) day jobs to found BioWare.

Just because making games is your dream doesn't mean you need to go into it right away. Success requires hard work and lots of patience, but it doesn't necessarily require eating Ramen for 2 years. Building the skills you need layer by layer will give you a much stronger foundation for when you do finally dedicate yourself to this full-time.

[Dan MacDonald]

There are 3 things they never seem to teach in school, Source/Version control, Build Environments, and Issue Tracking. It's so odd because they are absolutely critical to working with more then one person on a project. These and other lessons are really only gained from experience as a professional software developer.

[David York]

You are very well-spoken and mature sounding for a 19 year old. Good show. You are doing the right things asking these questions - either accept, ever if it sounds dubious, the advice from people who have learned the hard way or just learn the hard way yourself.

My advice - the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Therefore, if you want to make a large ambitious game you have to make a small game, then a medium sized game, then a large one, otherwise you'll be 4 years into it with a yearning to give up and do something small so you have something to show for you efforts.

Also - write a 2D puzzle game or board game to start. Nothing else comes to mind so far as maximum simplicity. Then, use both the hindsight AND the source code you've gained from that experience to make another game of a step up in size, such as a simple arcade game.

Good luck. BTW - Go to school if you can or get a day job.

[Fry Crayola]

I'm also starting out having just graduated from University back in July. The search for the day job continues, but in the meantime this will keep me busy at least.

I'm starting out by trying things out, seeing what works and what doesn't, what I can and can't do. I can't make a house without learning to use the bricks first.

But I'm pretty determined that in a few months I'll have something good. Nothing that hasn't been done before, but certainly an appealing "first game". I find it's best to build from there. If I was to put it off continually because others have done it better, I'd never get a single game released.

[patrox]

My advice:

1) Get a day job - you need income no matter what. Even if your parents are supporting you... You need money to grow your business (whether it be books, software, web space, etc.)

2) Read read read read read Learn learn learn learn as much as you can about everything related to the business. There are so many articles on marketing and programming. A good place to start:
http://www.dexterity.com/articles/

3) Be real - don't live in a dream, you are not going to become id software in 5 months or even 5 years.

4) Never give up - if you really love game developing and dream of doing this your whole life, then go for it. The difference between those who succeed and those who fail - the ones who failed gave up, and the ones who succeeded didn't. Simple as that.

In summary: go for your dream, but be responsible and realistic. Get a day job, and at night practice for your future job of game development. I never got a job and I quit school, and I have to struggle like hell (thank god my parents support me). Sure, I am on the verge of succeeding, after years of hard work. I never gave up.

I hope this helps you...

5) Add a signature to your posts, you never know where customer can be!
I don't know what you're selling, but maybe i need it!

Don't be ashamed of your products!

pat.

[Jack Norton]

Yes, I am curious too to see what games/products you're selling george

I've seen very few experienced members of those boards that don't have signature (since it is a good way to get visitors on your website).

Please let us know

[tolik]

I can't find the article, but the very good story behind learning game programming was progression from "Tetris", "Breakout" to "Pac-Man" and some other titles which I can't really remember.

[20thCenturyBoy]

I can't find the article, but the very good story behind learning game programming was progression from "Tetris", "Breakout" to "Pac-Man" and some other titles which I can't really remember.

Do you mean this one.

I have just finished the first stage (Tetris). I guess I should add a sig to my posts too even if my games will most likely be freeware in the beginning at least.

20thCB

[tolik]

Do you mean this one.

I have just finished the first stage (Tetris).

Yeah, exactly that one.

Don't skip any stages there, they are VERY important and you'll have to go back to the previous stages if you'll skip one of them.

[Devman]

There are 3 things they never seem to teach in school, Source/Version control, Build Environments, and Issue Tracking. It's so odd because they are absolutely critical to working with more then one person on a project. These and other lessons are really only gained from experience as a professional software developer.

I can't agree with this more. You definitely should work in the software industry and learn professional software development. I have learned so much in the 3.5 years I have worked as a software developer because I work with people who 1) are better developers than me, 2) have years more experience than me, and 3) are willing to teach me, and I am willing to learn.

These skills have helped me make my first product which is not even a game, but a screensaver. The amount of work it took me to make it, however, was not trivial! I have learned from it, though, taking a project from scratch to release, and have even sold some copies of it since releasing it two weeks ago! My point is, definitely start small with your first project.

Go to college if there is any way possible for you to. That diploma will get your foot into the door in many places throughout your life to help you one day support you and your family. Work on your game in your free time, and keep learning!

May God bless you.

[MrPhil]

I have a small piece of advice I wish someone had given me long ago.

Do something today.

Life is full of decision, and billions and billions of paths to the same places. You are lucky because you already know where you want to go, and a lot of people never figure that out. There are uncountable ways to get there, and in the big scheme of things the only path that matters is the one that gets you there.

For years I thought about making computer games, but was always waiting for the right moment, and over the years I discovered that there is no right moment. It isn’t when college is done, or after that promotion, after you get a girlfriend, or a better job or when you move or after you save up a lot of money or after you get married or pay off the car. The moment is now. Do something, ANYTHING that’ll get you one small step closer to your goal everyday and then one day thru thick and thin you’ll find yourself selling you’re first game.

Please don’t make the mistake I did and wait for the right time because there is never a prefect time, you only have the NOW.

You can do it!

Good luck!

[pythian]

I have a small piece of advice I wish someone had given me long ago.

Do something today.
...
Please don’t make the mistake I did and wait for the right time because there is never a prefect time, you only have the NOW.

I want to second that advice even if I haven't necessarily taken it. I'm still in the learning and planning stages, so at least the reading and such I'm doing counts as 'something' but I have spent many years talking, studying, and plotting to make games with nothing to show for it. Does this feel good? No, not so much. The longer you wait to take your first steps, the harder those steps will be to actually take. I've waited for many of the "don'ts" that MrPhil outlined and he's exactly right.

There's only one way to start something .. take the first step. There's only one time to start, if it's something you're serious about, and that time is roughly equivalent to now.

I'm still having trouble with scale. I'm having a difficult time keeping a design to a small enough scale to be able to see it as a project and not have it be the 'tar pit' of a project that leaves me frustrated etc. Though, with more experience, so it seems, these problems tend to diminsh. And, of course, to get that experience, one simply needs to start working on a project. The best experience seems to come from those projects that you finish. You'll learn a bunch from trying to crank out some blockbuster epic, but most of it will probably be technical details and lessons from mistakes on pretty much just the coding aspect.

Or so I think.

[Machu]

Well, highest priority right now is job-searching. I'll be sure to learn things when I can, as long as the job hunt doesn't suffer. To be honest, my idea for my first game is Paper/Rock/Scissors! Of course, there will be many themes and modes to warrant purchase. Everyone has played Tetris before, and no truly new ideas are being added, so even if there was some profit, I'd feel awfully guilty for not using any creativity. Yeah, I see how it's a learning experience, and I may very well do it, but it obviously won't be a big deal to "the market". Oh, and I think I heard someone mention doing a board game, and I had an idea for one as well (as far as "the second project" goes).

And thanks for being a generally nice community.

[dfvdan]

Hi!

Long-time lurker here. I'm quite close to release of my first game though, so I'll probably be posting more soonish.

Anyway, I don't have years of experience in game development. I do however have years of experience as a business owner and working creative professional. As such I'd like to reflect on something that I find a bit weird here.

Questions relating to "how long it takes to make it" pop up every now and then here and in similar forums and will probably do so forever. The standard reply everywhere seems to be "it takes years".
I don't agree.

I don't think it's possible to answer the question - at all. Not without knowing what the person is capable of and intends to do. Making a great game is art in a sense, and as in most creative professions, success doesn't follow any specific rules.
The question in this thread and others is very much similar to a beginning musician asking "how long will it take me to become a rock star?".

If you're talented, smart, relatively well-connected, and have a great idea and the means to implement it, you could indeed become successful right away. On the other hand, if you don't have good ideas and the means to realize them you most likely will never be successful no matter how long or hard you work.

It might seem harsh, and maybe I'm naive, but I fully subscribe to the idea of "good games sell". If my game doesn't sell when it is launched it will be due to it being:
- bad
- poorly marketed
- not unique enough to compete/ be seen

I won't blame the fact that it's released by a small, little-known company. I don't think that's nearly as important as having a good product.

If you think you can create unique and polished games, go for it - it will sell. If not, it's going to end up among gazillions of other unpolished and unorginal games and will not sell, which shouldn't be a surprise.

Cheers,
Daniel

[Reactor]

Yep, well said... some of those a fantastic points!

While I'm here, I'd also like to say that there's no rule that says you have to start small in development. What you really should do is limit yourself to a realistic level of development, and never above what you're actually capable of. But, if you're a large capacity person, and you have the skillset, regardless of whether you've developed a tetris level game before, you should go as big as you can! The only reason people say develop a) game, then b) and then c) is because most people can't judge what they're capable of. But, if you've done enough of anything to guage how well you'll go, there's obviously no need to follow that development schedule.

I'm just about through with my first game, and we've aimed as big as we can, far above the average indie. We've really been pushed during the development period, but I'm glad we aimed for the sky and pushed through, instead of aiming for the norm. If we'd aimed for the conservative development schedule, I think we'd be the poorer for it.

Again, great points dfvdan.

[moonpxi]

I guess from all the above posts, the most important, to me, was the one who said: do something NOW!!

This is an advice I seriously took a few months ago. Now, I am just finishing my website, and my first game (a freeware-bait Tetris-clone with a twist). Remeber, there is no use thinking what you could be, what games would be cool, and so on, if all you do is sit around and thing. Be proactive!!!

[Diragor]

Amen to MrPhil and those who have echoed the "do it now" advice. It's right on the money and I've known it for some time, yet I still remain stuck in research mode, or waiting for the right time, or any number of other procrastination methods that are keeping me from doing what I want to do. I really need to get one of those "getting things done" books that Steve P. recommended in one of his articles.

[Greg Squire]

Another piece of advice (okay you did ask for advice), is to "start small". Don't try to make the next Quake, or Half-Life. If your initial project is really big, you may never finish it. It's real easy to "bite off more than you can chew". If you have this vision for a really big game, either pare it down to something realistic, or start with smaller projects and grow your business until it reaches a stage where it might be possible to build that "grand vision you have".

Of course, to echo a little of what Reactor said. "How small" is up to you and your abilities. Just be realistic about what you can do in the limited amount of time that you have.

Also, from a business perspective, it's better to have smaller games anyway. It's extremely difficult to compete with the likes of ID, EA, Blizzard, Edios, etc., so build something in a niche market where you can compete. Also, you can build more smaller games in the time times a one larger one, thus increasing the number of products you can sell. The "law of diminising returns" applies to large projects. You can only charge so much for your game, so there's a point where making it bigger isn't going to bring you any more ROI (return on investment).

[Fry Crayola]

If you're going for a bigger product, you've got to go for one where the competition is limited.

There are literally hundreds of professionally produced FPS titles with production values you can probably only dream of. The market is swamped with 3D platformers and driving titles. Why would someone pick your $20 game when they can buy a 2 year old title for the same price, or more likely set aside another chunk of cash to buy the latest killer app?

It's unlikely they will unless you can offer something new. Anything to make someone want to play your title, something to make it stand out. And in truth, this is extremely difficult. You can make a quality game. But will you sell it?

Where the competition is limited (for example, 2D platformers or shooters, or turn based strategy) you've a much better chance in my opinion. There is definitely a market out there that the mainstream developers just don't see. Believe in it, and use that to your advantage. Where does the Civ 3 and X-Com fan go for his next fix? If you can get word out, he may very well turn to you.

For me that's the key. I'm quite happy to extend myself to try games that require a little more time, and a little more ambition, but I'll never take on the big boys at the big sellers. I'll go for the games that I want to play but can't because they simply don't exist. If I find commercial success, great. If I don't - heck I've got a game I want to play. And surely someone else will too.