Critique my combat prototype!

[Viridian]

I've been working on a prototype of a new fast turn-based combat system for my current game, and I've finally gotten the prototype ready. This is just a prototype, now...it's only job is to show you the system and let you play with it, not wow you with incredible graphics.

If anyone here wants to download it and give it a shot, I'd be very grateful for any feedback. Complete instructions for running it are on the page provided.

Thank you.

[esrix]

Seems interesting. Although, it does remind me a lot of the system implemented in the Grandia series on the consoles. If you have a few bucks to spare and a PS2, I would recommend you look at Grandia 2 or 3 (not Xtreme), but I wouldn't say it's a requirement.

My one major complaint is that I think that you should change the option icons to plain text. I understand that you explained what the icons do on the webpage, but if you are planning to add more icons as you develop the game further (such as for individual spells and whatnot) then it can get quite confusing as the game progresses.

My smaller complaint is that I didn't like having to move my mouse back and forth between the options and the targeted area/enemy on the battlefield, but I don't really have any suggestions for that for the time being.

Overall, I liked it. I died like no tomorrow, but I liked the concept.

[impossible]

Doesn't run for me. It starts up and exits. Here's the log:

2: bpp = 32
7: full_screen = 0
9: h_res = 512
12: name = FortyHourRPG
14: use_opengl = 1
15: v_res = 384
18: Size of map: 6

Radeon 9800 Pro 256 MB... pretty new drivers , Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz, Windows 2000.

[Viridian]

Seems interesting. Although, it does remind me a lot of the system implemented in the Grandia series on the consoles. If you have a few bucks to spare and a PS2, I would recommend you look at Grandia 2 or 3 (not Xtreme), but I wouldn't say it's a requirement.

My one major complaint is that I think that you should change the option icons to plain text. I understand that you explained what the icons do on the webpage, but if you are planning to add more icons as you develop the game further (such as for individual spells and whatnot) then it can get quite confusing as the game progresses.

My smaller complaint is that I didn't like having to move my mouse back and forth between the options and the targeted area/enemy on the battlefield, but I don't really have any suggestions for that for the time being.

Overall, I liked it. I died like no tomorrow, but I liked the concept.

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Grandia games - 1 was best, 2 was very good (Millennia was awesome), and 3 was...okay. Oh, and 2 is only very good if you play the original version on the Dreamcast, the PS2 port SUCKED.

And yes, avoid Grandia Xtreme like the plague.

Basically, I wanted a lot of Grandia in my combat system, while still having more direct control over the characters. For one thing, you cannot tell your character to move anywhere you want in Grandia. It's not really necessary, because there are no tactical advantages to doing so, since every battle arena is a flat plane. Basically, I want to add low and high cover to my game so that movement becomes a consideration. But other than that, I thought Grandia's combat system was great and worth getting inspired by.

The "clicking back and forth" thing could be solved by a radial menu. Sigh...I really didn't want to do a radial menu because I freakin' hate radial menus. They usually take forever to come up because the game has to parse every possibility for your current target and then construct the menu. They are also confusing because typically each instance of one has different options, meaning you can't get familiar enough with them to do automatic input - you have to LOOK at every single one that comes up, visually scanning each option for the one you want.

I can probably solve both those problems, though, and I probably should go ahead and implement a radial menu.

Thank you very much for your input!

[Viridian]

Doesn't run for me. It starts up and exits. Here's the log:

2: bpp = 32
7: full_screen = 0
9: h_res = 512
12: name = FortyHourRPG
14: use_opengl = 1
15: v_res = 384
18: Size of map: 6

Radeon 9800 Pro 256 MB... pretty new drivers , Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz, Windows 2000.

Um...well, that's weird. The game is using the SDL and FMOD, and I thought I had it error handling pretty well...so far you're the first person who hasn't been able to run it. About the only thing I can suggest is to make sure you're in 32-bit color mode.

[undersan]

I haven't played many turn-based games, and this "turn-based without actual turns" concept is new to me. I liked it. It feels more fast-paced than something like Silent Storm, where I have to issue commands to every single unit before anything finally moves.

My strategy was to take out their missile attackers first, but I had a hard time identifying/remembering who was firing missiles, since everything was happening so fast.

There is no way to pause and cancel an engage command or a move command, right? Why not? I don't understand this limitation. I feel forced into using single-shot attack commands and moving only short distances, because I'm afraid to commit to long-term commands that can't be canceled.

Actually, your single-shot versus engage attacks remind me of Silent Storm's short-burst versus long-burst machine gun attacks. Long bursts are risky commitments, like your engage attacks, but they have the upside of ultimately dealing more damage, more quickly versus short bursts.

I agree about the radial menu. Display all stats/buttons near each unit, thus getting rid of that right pane altogether.

[Viridian]

I haven't played many turn-based games, and this "turn-based without actual turns" concept is new to me. I liked it. It feels more fast-paced than something like Silent Storm, where I have to issue commands to every single unit before anything finally moves.

My strategy was to take out their missile attackers first, but I had a hard time identifying/remembering who was firing missiles, since everything was happening so fast.

There is no way to pause and cancel an engage command or a move command, right? Why not? I don't understand this limitation. I feel forced into using single-shot attack commands and moving only short distances, because I'm afraid to commit to long-term commands that can't be canceled.

Actually, your single-shot versus engage attacks remind me of Silent Storm's short-burst versus long-burst machine gun attacks. Long bursts are risky commitments, like your engage attacks, but they have the upside of ultimately dealing more damage, more quickly versus short bursts.

I agree about the radial menu. Display all stats/buttons near each unit, thus getting rid of that right pane altogether.

I wanted you to not be able to change a unit's orders at will because I wanted that to be a tactical decision the player had to make. But EVERYBODY HATES IT, so it's coming out I'll probably make it so that if you press the space bar, everything gets paused, and you can see what all your units are doing and give them new orders if you want.

Right now, enemy units choose whether to be archers or fighters randomly. I should change that and also change their icons to reflect what they do (I just didn't have the icons to do this, but I can make some). I should do the same with the player's units; right now it's just too hard to tell who is who.

Plus, everybody needs A* pathfinding. That'll come in next.

[impossible]

Um...well, that's weird. The game is using the SDL and FMOD, and I thought I had it error handling pretty well...so far you're the first person who hasn't been able to run it. About the only thing I can suggest is to make sure you're in 32-bit color mode.

Yes its very weird, I'm assuming you're using vanilla OpenGL 1.1 calls... I'm 99% sure I was in 32-bit color mode, although its possible that some weird app that I'd run earlier changed modes on me (I didn't explicitly check.) Could have been the Prey demo or something... The app starts up if I change to "use_opengl=0", I can hear music but I get a black screen.

Anyway, just tried it on my work machine and it worked perfectly fine. Its a good start of a combat system. I never played Grandia, but it does remind me of combat in some of the Bioware games. One thing you might want to have is auto-attacking, and the ability to queue and cancel commands. All of these things start to remove some direct control and micromanagement, which may or may not be a good thing. I kind of like that you have to choose every action your characters take and make decisions as they come up.

[radishan]

This type of combat system has a lot of potential.

Here are a couple suggestions that might be cool:

1. Auto attack. You can set your archer to always fire at a particular enemy until he dies.

2. Floaty damage numbers above each character's head. When you score a hit you'll see red numbers flash above your target.

[vjvj]

I played it and liked it. I like your idea of hitting a key to pause and give new orders, and think it will improve what's already there.

I'd also suggest hotkeys for commands for people who don't like panning the mouse back and forth (e.g. me!).

Sigh...I really didn't want to do a radial menu because I freakin' hate radial menus.

Spoken like a wise game designer. The force is strong in this one!

[MibUK]

I wanted you to not be able to change a unit's orders at will because I wanted that to be a tactical decision the player had to make. But EVERYBODY HATES IT, so it's coming out I'll probably make it so that if you press the space bar, everything gets paused, and you can see what all your units are doing and give them new orders if you want.

I haven't played the game, but the talk of archers makes it sound past/fantasy style game.
How about accurately applying Line of Communication.
I.e. You have a commander / command post, in order to change someones order, the command must travel from command post to the unit. Until it gets there, they'll continue doing what they want.

Actually that gives me a whole idea for a game, a tactical battle game, but really looking at lines of communication and supply. So you can just send commands to every unit, commands take time, can be intercepted. Enemy units cannot be seen unless reports can come back to command.

Hmm, I'll think on that one for a bit

[stiill]

I think your case against radial menus is correct. I've never met a radial menu I liked.

There are better ways to avoid all the mouse back and forth. RTS games don't have it, for example, and this combat is extremely RTS. Sensible right-click actions handle the majority of cases. Hotkeys handle the remaining minority (optional, of course).

Check out Baldur's Gate.

[Daire Quinlan]

Failed to work for me too ...

geforce3, 32bpp screen depth. Started up, failed. I do a lot of OpenGL work so the driver are definately up to date, nothing in stderr or stdout, runlog is ...

0: bpp = 32
0: full_screen = 0
0: h_res = 512
0: name = FortyHourRPG
16: use_opengl = 1
70: v_res = 384
77: Size of map: 6

D.