Hello, I'm new here ...
... and just thought I'd introduce myself, before I start posting questions (how do I do <whatever> in DirectX) all over these forums ... and I hope this is in the correct section of the forum?
Anwyay, I've been developing games for over 20 years, started out on the BBC micro, progressed through 8bit Atari, ST, Amiga, a bit of a dabble with the PC, Gameboy Advance, and currently I'm looking to move over to PC casual games, which I think will suit me just fine.
PC casual games really appeal to me, no big console manufactures to deal with, and it seems quality, playable games that arn't licensed do quite well (not like with the GBA, where licensed 'pulp' prospers; not that I'm bitter at all!).
I've got a site here if you want to check it out.
Jamie, I just posted in your other thread. You are too modest!
I played Qwak on the Amiga back "in the day". The graphics were glossy and chunky which is a sure fire good thing for the casual market you are heading for
And as for Nitro? Played it to death.
You may be new around here but I think anything you say is going to be welcome and worth listening to!
oh and er.. Welcome
Hey, I remember the Amiga games too. Awesome!
I don't know how well a Qwak remake would do in the casual market, but it is/was definitely one of those quirky games that draw attention.I played Qwak on the Amiga back "in the day". The graphics were glossy and chunky which is a sure fire good thing for the casual market you are heading for
yup I meant the graphic style of Qwak (and his obvious talent towards shiny/cute stuff a long time before it was commonplace) rather than the gametype itself, which as you say, may not be ideal for strictly casual audiences.Originally Posted by mahlzeit
Hey, I remember the Amiga games too. Awesome!
I don't know how well a Qwak remake would do in the casual market, but it is/was definitely one of those quirky games that draw attention.
Hi Paul,
Hope I can make a worthwhile contribution here, seems like a very friendly place.
I totally enjoyed making those games, well, the Amiga stuff at least. Things went a little bit stale for me after that, the game industry at large seems to stiffle individuality and creativity somewhat, it's a shame. Especially with the GBA, you can't just set out and create something you think will be a fun playable game, 99 times out of a 100, publishers wont be interested unless it's crap and they can stick a license on it.
I really am new to PC game dev though, and have loads to learn, and even more questions to ask. Can't wait to get stuck in.
Hi Paul,yup I meant the graphic style of Qwak (and his obvious talent towards shiny/cute stuff a long time before it was commonplace) rather than the gametype itself, which as you say, may not be ideal for strictly casual audiences.
The thought of doing an enhanced updated PC version of Qwak had crossed my mind; and there's a load of new features and things I could do with it. So ignoring the graphics, would you think the game-play style of Qwak unsuitable to a casual audience?
I guess people like different things, and you're never going to please everyone, all of the time. So they say!!!
Incidently, I recently ported Qwak to GBA, bit of bumpf on it here.
Hi Matthijs,Hey, I remember the Amiga games too. Awesome!
I don't know how well a Qwak remake would do in the casual market, but it is/was definitely one of those quirky games that draw attention.
Hope quirky is good!!
It is. One of the best forums I've ever participated in with mostly well behaved posters
I read a retrospective feature on Psygnosis in Edge (last issue) which said similar things, so it's funny to see you turn up saying the same kind of thing (being connected with the big "P" as you were). There are plenty around here who also think that way, and a new discussion about it pops up regularly. However, things can get a bit heated when discussing what individuality means in casual games because at the moment, success wise, it also seems to thrive on the creation of very similar products within a narrow range of ideas. Licenced games are thankfully not that prominent (yet). A lot of us believe that there can be "new types" of casual games, in fact most game game types, so long as they are tuned towards that market. You will find plenty of info on here about that.I totally enjoyed making those games, well, the Amiga stuff at least. Things went a little bit stale for me after that, the game industry at large seems to stiffle individuality and creativity somewhat, it's a shame. Especially with the GBA, you can't just set out and create something you think will be a fun playable game, 99 times out of a 100, publishers wont be interested unless it's crap and they can stick a license on it.
Try not to dwell too much on what is considered right or wrong for the casual audience (though most of us have at one point). I certainly wouldn't want to put the idea out there that something the quality of QWAK couldn't fly as an indie PC game. The thing with a lot of "casual" gamers is they play for activity, they like very easy games with little challenge but lots of polish, usually mouse only controls, which as you can appreciate are not always ideal for games such as platformers and the more traditional gametypes.
This is sort of accepted info about the sweet spot of that that particular audience, but without people trying to push the boundaries of casual games, we will never know. I think you should do what you want to do from instinct, at least for a while. If your house/relationship/sanity doesn't depend on instant financial success, then the world is your oyster. There are better people on here to listen to than me though, because those guys have success with casual games. There are others (a lot of the mods on here) who have made more traditional "hardcore" games and had success too.
Personally I would like to see a new game with a metal plated Clint Eastwood look-a-like in, even though "Nitro" obviously appeals to the more traditional game players.
Yes, and it's becomming more and more obvious that you probably shouldn't attempt to try to please everyone if you want your game to have personality and life, which is why it's important to listen to your own instincts firstly, especially if you come from a proven game design background like you do.I guess people like different things, and you're never going to please everyone, all of the time. So they say!!!
Incidently, I recently ported Qwak to GBA, bit of bumpf on it here.
The more watered down games tend to be more shallow in gameplay but can do well with the portal/casual audience. Which is worth bearing in mind.
I personally found this forum great for the business side, and for the specific advice pertaining to "indie games". Technical stuff (like DirectX as you mention) is talked about here but not that in depth. Though there are plenty of threads on engines and frameworks which, if you don't want to have to make your own specifically to wrap DX may be worth looking at. Even something like BlitzMax could get you up and running in no time, though if you are more used to C++ (as I am) you could look at PTK, PopCap framework, or SDL. I use mostly my own code in C++ for 3D stuff though. For 2D stuff there are plenty of options other than hitting the metal directly (or as directly as DirectX/win32 allows).
Good Luck!
Qwak! That game was utterly insane - part of the appeal. Move a duck around the level, throwing eggs at enemies with fruit falling from the sky... deary me. Cute graphics, simple yet fast gameplay, tons of great music. I still have that game, despite no longer having my Amiga.I played Qwak on the Amiga back "in the day". The graphics were glossy and chunky which is a sure fire good thing for the casual market you are heading for
I only recently heard that the man behind Xcom/UFO is a poster here. If the two Johns from Doom were to show up I may explode. My youth is catching up with me.
This post does not belong in this forum.
Hopefully the mods will move it rather than delete it.
Yeah this should probably be moved to roll call, but welcome aboard Jamie, are you still occupying the free houses in Sheffield ?
--
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the advice once again.
I whole-heartedly agree with what you're saying about trusting your instincts, and not watering things down in an attempt to please everyone.
Still; I've found it's not always good to just blindly following your passion and hope that everything will work out fine. I've started (and often finished) a lot of projects (that I felt would have been fantastic), and they've never seen the light of day. It's not fun putting all that effort in and getting nothing back (both in terms of money and creative satisfaction).
I guess there's probably a healthy balance to be struck somewhere; between on the one hand, following your heart, creating the kind of games that you love to make, and on the the other, making them appealing, attractive, and accessable to as wide an audience as possible .........
Also; I read the Psygnosis feature in edge magazine. I had to laugh at the comments about them nurturing their developers (they kept me in the attic, never let me out in the sun-shine, and fed me on chicken and mushroom pot-noodles, yuk!).
No probs. I will probably be asking you for some before long.Hi Paul,
Thanks for the advice once again.
Yea that is the magic forumla a lot of us on here are still trying to work out. I think most of us are no longer blindly developing the "games we want to make" and assuming they will sell. We know it is more likely that they won't, so of course market research and current hot-spots (and what is working for those games that do sell) is always worth taking heed of. Trying to combine those ideal conditions while staying somewhat fresh/unique/interesting is where a lot of us would like to be. I think it will come, more casual games will take more risks and more hardcore games will simplfy or improve ergonomics for non typical gamers etc. Hopefully by 2007 we should see a new golden age of indiegames (they seem to come around every few years it seems) though I am not talking about "money" there. Maybe the main money is going to be mostly in the portal / casual audience for quite sometime yet so yes, it is wise to not ignore the examples of games that have done well and to learn from them. Even if they are games we wouldn't normally think of ourselves taking an interest in as old-school gamers (popcap springs to mind).I whole-heartedly agree with what you're saying about trusting your instincts, and not watering things down in an attempt to please everyone.
Still; I've found it's not always good to just blindly following your passion and hope that everything will work out fine. I've started (and often finished) a lot of projects (that I felt would have been fantastic), and they've never seen the light of day. It's not fun putting all that effort in and getting nothing back (both in terms of money and creative satisfaction).
I guess there's probably a healthy balance to be struck somewhere; between on the one hand, following your heart, creating the kind of games that you love to make, and on the the other, making them appealing, attractive, and accessable to as wide an audience as possible ........
Funny that, though I wasn't a designer, coder or anything more exotic than a QA tech/Studio tech when I worked at Codemasters, I too had frequent visits to their attic (which is an actual attic - at least it has skylights) for long drawn out network testing on ps2/xbox games. I never had pot noodles but I many times didn't have much company apart from the other guy testing with me. How the time would fly byAlso; I read the Psygnosis feature in edge magazine. I had to laugh at the comments about them nurturing their developers (they kept me in the attic, never let me out in the sun-shine, and fed me on chicken and mushroom pot-noodles, yuk!).
So is Ian H full of BS or do you miss those golden days?
rgds
Anytime; you may live to regret it though!
Ian H full of BS? Aren't we all? BS is an ineviatble part of human nature, it's just a question of degree ...So is Ian H full of BS or do you miss those golden days?
rgds
To my way of thinking, nurturing people with creative talent, talking to them, listening to them, working with them and fostering their talents / creativity, cultivating a harmonious, symbiotic, win-win relationship, seems to me to be the height of good business sense.
That didn't happen for me, they didn't seem at all interested in 'nurturing' me. I certainly would have been open to such a thing. Maybe I have bad B.O. or something? I dunno.
Then again, I think you'll find Ian H to be a far more astute business man than I am (I still drive a crappy N-reg ford fiesta, still saving for the ferrari).
I've just had a look at the credits for Nitro (in 'Monster Pack 1'), and there's no mention of me at all.
Credits:
Graphics: NEIL THIMPSON
Music and Effects: SOUND IMAGES
Cover Picture: JIM BURNS
Hello?
WTF!
What about ...
Initial concept?
Design?
Programming?
How about the guy who developed the game (incl. graphics) to 75% complete before taking to you? No need to mention him in the credits eh?
Psygnosis really did treat me like shite (and ripped me off big time).
What a total bunch of w*****s Psygnosis really were / are. That's the truth.
Even still, I find it hard to believe that's the worst that's happened to you, albiet certainly one of the most annoying in retrospect. Developing industries are cruel.
Of course, it also makes me wonder. I got in myself in '99 doing Gameboy Color games, at the advent of those perfectly useful flashcarts the rest of the world was using for piracy, as things were leading up to the Gameboy Advance launch. There's like this [s]10+[/s] year void between the GBA's launch and the Amiga's prime. If you're willing to talk about it, what happened?
Edit: Ok, maybe I have a worse understanding of time than I thought... still, 5 years is quite a while.
Last edited by PoV; 12-02-2006 at 06:40 AM.
Mike Kasprzak | sykhronics entertainment | Blog | twitter | Ludum Dare
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Hey you what's up yo? Kickin' it oldskool style!
They made me sleep on people's floors, and fed me pot noodles (no expense spared there eh?).
Generally, they treat me very badly, in their attitude towards me. Nitro was my first big game, and I was young and trusting, and had a very 'open' outlook at the time (guilable?). The thing is though, if they'd have treat me better, and not ripped me of, and nurtured me more, perhaps I'd have done more and better games with them.
I really didn't like the Artist working on Nitro either. With the ingame cars, I actually drew them myself, he just added a stripe down the middle and took the credit. Some people are just t**ts, and it's usually those kind that get on well in business.
By contrast, Team17 were a million times better, and fostered a much better relationship with me.
I don't know if things are different today, in the casual games scene? I'd imagine it is, and that the portals are just out to make a quick buck from you. I wouldn't touch em.
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