Moving mailing list subscribers to a new service

[Red Marble Games]

At the suggestion of several posts on these forums, I've been looking at AWeber as a possible replacement for YMLP for my newsletter base -- not that I have big problems with YMLP, but it looks like AWeber is far more feature-rich (and with things I actually would use and that might help grow my business). The deal-breaker problem, though, is that AWeber insists on sending an email to all of my subscribers requiring them to take affirmative action to opt-in to my list (again, since they already did that at YMLP over the years). I understand their reasons, but, well, I ain't going to do that.

The real purpose of this post, though, is not to debate the merits of AWeber's policy. As I say, I understand their reasons, and they can run their business as they wish. I don't think that debate would be productive. Rather, I'm wondering whether anyone has made such a move, and could report on what the attrition rate was?

Thanks!

Mark

[Game Producer]

Have you considered IGB ( http://www.indiegamebusiness.com )?

[Omega]

I know what you mean about AWeber. I had one third of my customers approve my aweber request after one week. That means two thirds of my customers did not. I've talked to them about it.

From what I can see, their first priority is the ISP relationships. Their last priority is customers. They treat you like a criminal. I had to contact them via voice chat to get them to approve 80% of my list. That's just to give your customers the CHANCE to be on the list. They still have to approve your request.

I don't think AWeber understands the concept of developers trying to e-mail their customers their own news related to the games/services, and not third party offers. AWeber seems to think that everybody who signs up with them is a marketer who is trying to screw over each person. NO, these are just our customers who we are trying to stay in touch with because if we e-mail them from our shared hosting, none of the AOL customers will get it, as well as those with some other ISPs.

The fourth problem is that, duh, after signing up, customers can simply click the SPAM button in their e-mail client, or click the unsubscribe link in the e-mail, and they are off the list. So why even force every customer who is imported to double-opt-in? It's easy enough for them to get off the list, instantly. This means two thirds of my customers haven't even received 1 newsletter, and they're already not even on it.

The fifth problem is that the message that the customers receive is unclear. It lets you customize the first paragraph, but the second paragraph states "Click the link above to give us permission to send you information. http://www.aweber.com/?XXX"

It sounds like spam. That stupid paragraph is what causes the sixth problem: it makes people think this is a virus or a spoof e-mail because the link is to their web site. The seventh problem: It says that it is a request for information. People will think, I didn't request anything! And will not respond. How idiotic is that?

Imagine, Princec adds you to the list and you get that e-mail. Even though he can customize the first paragraph, the second paragraph of the e-mail that you will get to confirm that you know this company, sounds like it is fake spam. And that will throw things into the customer's brain that they didn't request information.

However, because their ISP relationships are clearly their first priority, they do say they deliver about 95% or more of the e-mails straight to the user's Inbox (not spam folder.) They also say that their competitors deliver as few as 50%.

Aweber is geared towards this: A customer visits a web site. They want to get more information about some newsletter about stock picks. They sign up on the web form. They confirm that they wanted to sign up when they receive the verification e-mail. Great!

This does not work for developers and I hope Aweber gets its head out of its butt. That's not the cycle for people who sell digital products. They buy the product before even signing up for any newsletter. Then you want them on the list, so you call aweber's script to add the new customer's e-mail to your list. That customer now receives an e-mail that says "Click here to confirm that you requested information!" AND YOU'RE NOT trying to send this person spam or third party offers. But that's what that line makes the customer think. And of course they won't confirm. I wouldn't confirm, why should my customers? And that will happen for every new customer.

Here is the actual text that is sent to every customer you import or add after they buy:

-----------------------------------------------------------
CONFIRM BY VISITING THE LINK BELOW:

http://www.aweber.com/z/c/?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Click the link above to give us permission to send you
information. It's fast and easy! If you cannot click the
full URL above please copy and paste it into your web
browser.

Or, if you prefer, reply to this message with the
confirmation key in the subject line.

[revve]

It sounds like he already has a sizable YMLP mailing list, but is worried that if people must re-confirm their subscription, they might not remember or realise what it's for and not confirm (then only realise months later that 'that nice monthly/weekly/daily e-mail never gets here anymore').

If he gets revenue from the subscribers (them buying games they read about on a message from the list), then it can be a problem if it goes away. I think AWeber doesn't allow importing in their GUI, because spammers will use it to import their spam lists, but if I'm not mistaken, they do have a procedure that will allow people to import all their addresses from another list - I think you just need to contact them.

[arcadetown]

They've gotta do it to cover their butts.

Main reason why still run our own email list here. Our email list is over 200k now and takes quite a while to get out as have to throttle delivery speed way back to main services or get temporarily greylisted. The email services do this stuff for a living and know how to get around that. I've seen the big sites get around it also and run their own email servers. Gotta be some trick they all know. Anyone know the trick?

[ErikH2000]

Gotta be some trick they all know. Anyone know the trick?

Multiple mail servers on different IP addresses? >>shrug<<

Brian, how long does it take to send out your 200k messages? Are you using your own software or something you bought from somewhere else? I've written my own little throttled queue but haven't started using it yet. I need to though, since I'm getting some first signs of trouble. I'm curious what kind of delay you've found has to be put between messages sent to the same domain.

-Erik

[revve]

Gotta be some trick they all know. Anyone know the trick?

I setup a mailing list service for a client of mine about a month ago (I do this sort of general IT consulting during the day) - I'll be making it available publicly (YMLP/AWeber clone) once I've had a chance to make a nice, general WWW interface for it (the backend is up-and-running and is processing several thousand messages a day).

What I did was the following:

1.) Make sure your e-mail server(s) are setup properly. Proper reverse DNS, setup follows specifications, etc.
2.) The controller is on my main server (Dual 64bit 3.0ghz Zeon - hubba hubba)
3.) 5 small servers (1 physical server, 4 vps) each with multiple IP addresses on different class C ranges.
4.) My software splits job up into multiple parts. Each part is assigned to a source IP on a server (if one server has 10 IPs, that server can handle 10 simultanious jobs)
5.) Each job is throttled, but since 50-odd parts runs at the same time, the list flies out at a tremendous rate.
6.) Domains are split up. Eg if a list has 200 hotmail.com recipients, each of the 50 parts will deliver 4 messages. The queue will ensure that one message is sent in the beginning of the queue, the next is approx 25% through, the next 50%, etc. This means you don't flood servers with tons of messages and your servers/messages are treated like a normal message.
7.) If it's a slow hour/day/whatever and a queue only has lots of messages for one domain, it will throttle it as well (send one message, disconnect, wait 30 seconds, send one message, disconnect, wait 30 seconds, ........ ) This rarely happens

[Red Marble Games]

...if I'm not mistaken, they do have a procedure that will allow people to import all their addresses from another list - I think you just need to contact them.

Nope, I did contact them. They do have a method to import subscribers, but after you do so they send an email to everyone on your list requiring that they reaffirm their interest. No exceptions. And as I said, I understand their reasons. They've decided that better relationships with ISPs give them a competitive edge, at the cost of potential customers like me. Fine.

I appreciate Omega's report that only a third of his subscribers clicked through to reaffirm their interest; that's what I was asking about. I figured it would be something like that, and it confirms my decision not to take the chance. Thanks, O.

Mark

[arcadetown]

Deleted a couple prior flame messages. SoniCron stop baiting people and Omega don't take the bait.