Are Web-Based MMORPGs lucrative?

[BantamCityGames]

Hi, I was thinking about starting a very ambitious project this year... which would be a web-based mmorpg that is not graphically intensive. My question is, would something like this still be a lucritive business decision considering how many mmorpg's there are out there? I was looking for feedback from people who already have one in place, like FaitH, and I recently saw another one on these forums that used stick men as the character drawings.

Thanks.

[Game Producer]

There are some web based games like Runescape, Dofus. Then there was some ganster game... I'm not sure how people get revenue from these games - propably badly

http://www.kaneva.com looks like an interesting platform for ("real-non-browser")MMO game making, I'd suggest checking it out.

I have a small post about creating your own mmo game in my blog, it might be of some use.

[Anlino]

I can't tell anything from experience, but i could imagine that it would take a lot of time, even when it is finshed. Players would want to have more, more, more of everything, and it would be hard to start on something new when you would have to update the mmorpg all the time. And i believe that it is hard to get a foot in the market - Runescape is dominant like hell in webbased mmorpg's. There is currently 58 000 people playing it - and that is a lot of people. Though i wish you the best of luck.

[puggy]

forget web based. There's so many of them out there it's very hard to get into and there far more better quailty online games released or comming out that are client/server based.

If your going to do an online game of anykind do it client/server as it will look better (or at least if designed properly), will run better (no need to keep recompiling those php scripts) and use less bandwidth (no lengthy html code and images gobbling i all up). It's not overly hard tocreate a system like this but well worth the extra time put in.

[Teq]

planetarion did very well, until they tried to make silly money from it, but it'd be pretty hard to provide potential customers with a reason to pick yours above anyone elses (started our current project as a web-based rpg and decided against it when we play tested, estimated bandwidth usage and browser compatiblity problems).

[GBGames]

planetarion did very well, until they tried to make silly money from it, but it'd be pretty hard to provide potential customers with a reason to pick yours above anyone elses (started our current project as a web-based rpg and decided against it when we play tested, estimated bandwidth usage and browser compatiblity problems).

I didn't have so much of a problem with the money so much as the rules that were changed from one "season" to another. I started playing it the last season that was free, then paid for a friend and myself to play the next season. The season after that, they changed the rules so fundamentally that it didn't seem like the same game.

[Chris Evans]

I think HTML/Javascript-based MMOGs are way overcrowded. Also I think the limitations are too restricting.

If I were you I'd research about doing a Flash/Shockwave MMORPG. It's still browser based but at least you'll get a decent client/server look and feel. There's not too many professional quality Flash/Shockwave MMORPGs that are strictly browser based, so there's an opportunity there.

I personally have a simple MMOG in development that's Shockwave-based, but I'm purposesly treading very slowly and cautious with it. You can get an early look at it here: http://www.outsidetheboxsoftware.com...ing_games.html

[ErikH2000]

What's a multiplier you could use for ad revenue based on traffic from a web-based game? So for example, you can use a site like http://www.metricsmarket.com and estimate Kingdom of Loathing had half a million visitors in the last 30 days. If you had AdSense up there, what kind of revenue would it bring in? "It all depends..." Yeah, I know, I know. But some of you guys have had ad revenue from similar projects. Can anyone give a rough ratio of visitors to $?

KoL, btw, doesn't have ads. I was just using them as an example of a relatively successful web-based MMORPG. They sell merchandise instead, and unless it's a carefully hidden secret, they aren't making that much money. "Enough to cover our server costs".

-Erik

[Chris Evans]

Well it's hard to say what revenue to expect because it entirely depends on what keywords Adsense uses to display ads on your page. Though from what I've seen most people who run adsense on their game pages usually receive roughly .50 - $1.40 per one thousand pageviews. They also usually display more ads from other ad networks to maximize their revenue.

Ad revenue is a good bonus but I think it's important to also offer some other premium service or product with the game. Ad revenue can fluctuate widely.

Also check out this game, Adventure Quest:
http://www.battleon.com/

They seem to be doing pretty well even though their art is pretty rough. I see their advertisements everywhere.

[WickedEwok]

I've played adventure quest, it was very addictive for a week before I forced myself to break away from it. I don't know if they make money off advertisements, since no ads are displayed on the page when you play the game. But I think they do make money. The guardian mode(which you buy) may allow duels verses other players, though I'm not that sure. They've also been replacing a lot of the art assets. Some of them looked like they were drawn in MS paint, but the new ones do look a lot cooler.

The game doesn't require the player to be very involved, you can play for a minute and quit and get some xp here and there.

How lucrative are they? Well last time I checked, their paypal account has 1000 payments, and I beleive paypal caps payments at 1000. Guardian mode is like 15 dollars, and Guardian-X is like 20 dollars. So, I think they're making quite a bit of money just from selling these advance modes.

[BantamCityGames]

Thanks guys for the replies... It seems theirs mixed opinions here, but not much first-hand experience. I guess thats because it is a massive undertaking to make one afterall. Right now, I'm trying to weigh the costs of getting it going and getting 100 unpaid visitors to join. If I feel that it wouldn't cost too much I may tread slowly ahead, but then again, I could make a breakout clone in a quarter of the time and probably make better money.

[donmc]

I started on my path down MMO lane nearly 2 years ago. Most of the first year was studying the market and coming up with an MMO i would like to make -- and playing lots of MMOs!

After finely honing design docs, business plans, and talking to angel investors/VCs, a few things became clear:

1) there is a huge market out there for MMOs -- this is pretty much a no brainer now that WoW is such a success, but at the time many thought the market was already saturated in the pre-WoW days.

2) getting funding for a startup game company is all but impossible. Unless you already have titles under your belt or have a running demo to go with the business plan/design document, they simply aren't interested.

3) there is very little innovation in the MMO market. Very few MMO designers seem to consider things like "competitve advantage" or what their "niche" will be. "it'll be just like *insert early MMO name here*, but with better graphics and more monsters!"

Initially i wanted to make a PC MMO using directX/c++. Eventually i decided on Java. The big problem with MMOs is that they are the most complex and expensive games to make. You have all the hurdles of a normal single-player game, but all the server code, security, infrastructure, and so on. What's more, artwork is quickly becoming the most expensive part of MMO development because of all the 3-d artwork.

Budgets for AAA MMOs are already in the 10-20 million dollar range, and industry veteran Jessica Mulligan recently stated that she thinks 30 or even 50 million might soon follow. This puts making a production quality 3-D MMO pretty much out of reach of any indie developer or small un/underfunded team.

It was clear from my informal conversations with angels and VCs that unless a startup game company has a playable demo of their game, they is no funding. Faced with these problems, i reluctantly decided to build a web-based demo for my MMO.

I've always been aiming for a "thinking man's game" for my MMO. I have no delusions that people who want to play games with alot of depth and breadth are only a small fraction of the 5.5 million who play WoW. That's ok though. The pie is plenty big and i'm not trying to fight for the same part of the Tolkien/AD&D/Carebear part that everyone else seems obsessed with. True it is the lion share of the MMO market, but there are also many more competing for it.

I'd much rather vie for a market segment few others are interesting in chasing. Thus my non-cyberpunk, non-apocalyptic, slightly-futuristic sci-fi, with all the features the big companies aren't interesting in such as classless/leveless advacement, permadeath, deformable terrain and impact-able environments, PvP, etc. Pretty much everything SOE, Turbine, Microsoft, and Vivendi aren't interested in.

When i started working on the web-based prototype i wasn't thinking i would be able to create anything in the way of graphics, and would have to bank soley on my creative gameplay mechaincs. That is until i stumbled on AJAX. Before AJAX became the big buzzword in web development last year i had stumbled on two browser-based games:

http://www.kgreene.com/rpg.php
and
http://www.smokymonkeys.com/triglav/

Both these games use AJAX. I was very impressed that using nothing more than HTML, XML, Javascript, and CSS on the client with PHP and MySQL on the backend that such rich browser games could be made. Neither is a widely played game or in a production state, but both show what can be done. You could also use a Java applet or flash, but for me i was trying to use the lowest common denominator possible for my demo.

Most browser-based MMOs are textual not graphical. There are perhaps hundreds of what i call "browser muds" out there. There are significantly fewer graphical ones and most use static images. Even so i have come across many with large followings. Large enough that a lone programmer or very small team could possibly generate enough revenue to be self sufficient.

Building something more along the lines of kgreene or triglav i believe that an indie developer could actually make a browser-based game that would run in pretty much any modern browser on a multitude of platforms (windows, linux, Mac, maybe even cell phones) and people would actually pay to play either as a subscription and/or for premium content. Adverts are another possibility but generally don't generate enough revenue to support even a single paycheck.

There is an important point to make here: Developers need a clear understanding of what part of the market they are going for. What is their competitive advantage? The usual things would be price, quality, or features. If you want to make a tolkien/AD&D/warriors/wizards/Elves/with levels and classes, their are many high-quality games already out there for players to choose from. There are even some free web-based games out there. Thus there's no room to compete on price since there are already free ones, you cannot compete on quality because games like WoW exist, and you definitely aren't competing on feature because you are making a game exactly like every other RPG in existence.

I like medieval fantasy (MF) as much as the next guy, but if you want to have any hope of making an MMO that will actually make you money, you have to pick something else. I believe that a wild west MMO would actually be a viable game. It would be somewhat harder because of the limited technology and lack of magic (note that sci-fi games have their own "magic" system with psionics, or other non-sensical technology), but "magic" in a wild-west game would be hard. 1930's gansters, vampires, Modern-day real world, or any number of other themes are also possibilities.

If you do want to do MF, you need to throw out Tolkien/AD&D and come up with something new. The problem i worry about is how well players would accept your non-Tolkien AD&D design. If you didn't have elves, would they all complain there were no elves?

With AJAX (for once in my life i say thank you Microsoft!) there are some nice possibilities of rich user games in a browser window. Better yet the only needed technology are present in all modern browsers, and platform independent to boot. The only three drawbacks i see to using AJAX are 1) javascript will do graphics ok, but it's so far removed from the hardware that they are not very fast (but possible nontheless), 2) you do have a client/server app, but it's not a persistent two-way connection. The server can only send a response to a request made by the client, but there are some pretty effective ways to deal with this most notably using a "heartbeat" approach, and 3) you have basically no access to the user's local machine. Without stepping outside the browser by using something like a hidden java applet, you can really only use cookies on the local machine to store data, and there is a 4k/8k limit on how much data you can store and there are some other issues with using cookies.

Thus if you game is very graphics intensive, will require a two-way persistent connection, or must make use of the local hard drive, then AJAX won't work. Flash or maybe a java applet will, but once you start getting that far you'd probably be better off with something like straight up java.

So again, i do believe that an indie could actually make a successful (commercially) browser-based MMO. It wouldn't be easy, but no doubt possible. My biggest caution would be to ask yourself what is your competitive advantage and what's your market niche.

regards,
~don

[puggy]

I don't think the client server based mmo is out of the reach of indie's.

Sure you won't get a AAA standard , but most single player AAA games come with a 5-10mil budget so most indies do those either.

Inovation is the key here. It really is open season for the MMO market as the lack of most genres makes it compelling. There is some extra work in the client/server system but not a huge amount, it's really just the communication system as your basically splitting the singler player game into 2 (ok thats a simplistic look at it, there's a bit more involved with it).

One of the biggest advantages of MMO's is that you can update and upgrade the game as you go along, so don't make it too overly complex, add in new features once your up and running, becuase thats what players expect. At the minute i'm working on an "illegal business" component for starpeace which allows underhanded playing on worlds where it's installed. Once thats done i intend to go on a PR blitz to get as many new players as possible and hopefully with the money i get i can have a modeler or 2 on the payroll for the next advancement, a 3d viewer plus improved building graphics on the 2d viewer section using those 3d models. Along with that i'll be adding more buildings to the game, adding mini games, adding some gameplay into the 3d viewer (fps/rpg/rts type system going though the tycoon world there on, havn't decided on all the details for that, want to get IB done first).

So start off simple, and build on it. There's plenty of markets open so don't just think MMORPG, i already have idea's for a few more games, some of which are quite easy to do, others are a lot harder, but i can see plenty of open markets.

[JimmyT]

Hi everyone,

I've been meaning to reply to this article for a while now, but I was restricted by the new account 'lurker' period . If you haven't already then you might be interested in reading my post about my game, Heroes of Draconia.
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?p=76727

With Heroes of Draconia (still not sure about the name), I'm aiming to appeal to the community who finds Runescape a bit too slow and hard to get into, however finds Adventure Quest too simple (doesn't seem to have very much strategy and lack of multiplayer).

The game isn't a MMORPG in the typical sense, but will contain a lot of features that make MMOGs fun to play in my opinion. That is things like a community and teaming up with other players, a proper trading system, and persistent characters. There isn't much of a world to speak of, but takes more of a Diablo and Guild Wars standpoint of instancing levels for people to play. It's also not 3d, but uses a simple 2d engine that looks quite pretty, but has limited animation. These are the reasons why it's not needing a million dollar budget, but will hopefully still be fun to play. I would still say that it's been a lot of work so far, more than I expected. (Yes, I was a bit late those posts about not trying a MMOG as your first game!)

I think this game is the type of thing that Bruno was asking about in his original question. Of course I think it's possible to make some money out of it, otherwise I wouldn't be trying. Whether I will or not is another question. What I would say is that you really need to plan the whole thing from beginning so that you know what you're getting yourself into because it's a lot of work. Also picking the right technology to use will make the difference of having a server that can serve 200 connections and one that can handle 2000 connections. You don't want to have to rewrite your whole server-side if you find it's popular.

Don, I did originally think about using AJAX and DHTML, but thought the limitation of not having a persistent two-way connection to the server was too great. For my game I need immediate feedback after a move, and the only way I could see doing that was with polling which would be very expensive with many connections. I considered Flash/Shockwave, but I don't have any experience with them and I didn't know what the networking capabilities would be like.

If you haven't already, I'd appreciate it if you'd read my other post requesting feedback about my game and let me know what you think of it so far. My motivation is actually quite low now so I was hoping for some encouragement!

Thanks,
James

[Aldacron]

The browser based game market is a great place to experiment. The cost of entry is low, the potential customer base is huge - especially so if the game is free, and a successful game with a significant number of customers is a potential gold mine of advertising revenue. The key is to be different than what's already out there.

Empire builders, both fantasy and SF, are everywhere. I'd ignore fantasy and SF altogether. Think out of the box. Project Rockstar has been tremendously successful with attracting and retaining players. It only takes a few minutes each day to play, but you can spend more time with it if you want. It is also strangely addictive. If you can come up with an idea like that, one that not everyone else is doing, you'll have a hit if you can make it enjoyable enough.

[MikeRozak]

This thread seems like a good place to ask...

Does anyone happen to know the conversion rates for indie MMORPGs (of which there aren't many), indie CRPGs, or indie adventure games? Are they the in the typical 1% range, less, or more?

I'm working on a virtual world (MMORPG/MUD). Info on http://www.mxac.com.au/mif. It is less focused on combat (although it does do combat), and more focused on adventure-game puzzles.

By the way, my toolkit will allow other developers to create their own virtual world. It is programming intensive, but not nearly so much as creating everything from scratch.

[donmc]

hey Mike,
Conversion rates are a little tricky because there are primarily 5 revenue streams for MMOs:

• Retail box sales (WoW, GW, EQ2)
• Subscription fees (WoW, EQ2)
• ingame advertising (AO)
• selling ingame content (EQ2, EL)
• donations (EL)

Conversion rates would depend on what type of revenue stream you are after. Note that some games use multiple streams.

Raduprv (gamedev.net) runs Eternal Lands (EL) indie MMO. He sells ingame content and accepts donations. He has approx. 2,000 registered users with peak concurrency rates around 500 players. He says he makes enough money from EL each month to quit his job.

-Retail box fees are nice, but most indie MMOs will not be able to make it into the channel.
-Subscriptions are nice because the income is fairly consistent, but conversion rates are going to be fairly low for most indie MMOs.
-Ingame adverts can work well for browser-based games, but they aren't going to make you rich. Massive Inc. is a company that recently started which inserts ads into client-based games such as AO.
-There's much money to be made from selling ingame content, but players typically hate it. Selling players the l33t sword of annihilation is great for the ones spending the cash, but ruins the egalitarian qualities of the game which most players hate. All except the rich ones anyway. Still IGE makes a ton of money off the practice and SOE is doing it now with EQ2.
-Donations might well be the indie's best friend, especially when starting out. It's not consistent income, but players who are willing to spend all day playing your game will send donations. Again you can contact Raduprv over at gamedev.net to get his take on the issue.

regards,
~don

[MikeRozak]

Thanks for the info.

Minions of Mirth has pay once, play forever (until you get bored). This is a possiblity too (and similar to the donations approach you mentioned).

FYI, Iron Realms does well with its text MUDs, which are pay-for-items based. I'm not particularly interested in this myself, but it would probably work for graphics worlds too.

[mwtb]

MMORPGs cover a lot of ground both in terms of potential audiences and in terms of implementation. The innate advantage of browser-based applications is that the user can access them from anywhere and most browser MMORPGs are popular for exactly that reason - the user can play them at work or in college or wherever, without having to install a client. Moving to a client that needs some form of install pretty much shifts you out of that marketplace (although clearly you can bridge the two worlds if you want). Even Java applets or Flash clients will shift your market significantly, as although Flash has very good acceptance these days, a colourful, animated interface (or the simple threat of one being on their monitor) will still make your user less inclined to play the game in breaks at work, for instance.

There are also two broad modes of play represented in the browser MMORPG world. There's the immediate style of Runescape and KoL and there's the slower tick/turn based style of Hyperiums or the various Fantasy Leagues with the obvious impact on audience and technical requirements of the two.

So, the OP talked about "lucrative". Well, you can monetise site traffic, and there are clearly examples of browser games that people will pay for, but expectations of wealth are as optimistic in this area as in all areas of indie game development. If you want to make money, then you should probably look to hit the "casual social gaming" markets of the fantasy leagues or the kind of game it looks like Chris Evans is developing. These are areas where you can possibly place adverts appropriately (what else can you advertise against a gamer's game other than other games?) and convert users into money that way. You also obviously have a larger overall market anyway.

That said, I'm tinkering with my own project that is intended to be a fairly straight-forward game concept. The attraction to me is that it's a very accessible means to gain an understanding of a number of useful technologies (web-sites, forums, servers etc. are all going to be something worth knowing about for a while yet) as well as getting me to think about the issues surrounding multiplayer, community features in games etc. in general. TBH, I don't expect to even cover server costs with a first attempt at an established genre, to think otherwise would be a little arrogant, surely?