BlitzMax vs Torque 2D

[Leper]

http://www.garagegames.com/products/62#features


I think that I made a mistake buying BlitzMax.. I think Torque2D is way better now. Dangit! Is this true? Is Torque2D's features and editors THAT good? Anyone use it yet?

[Robert Cummings]

No, it's not as good as Blitzmax.

It's very good, I own the product, I even gave it a glowing review. Its fantastic for people with *SOME* C++ knowledge and if they want to make simple but fun action games or simpler puzzle games.

Why?

* entirely scripted not compiled. Still fast but don't expect to do pathfinding!

* cannot realistically create images or draw on surfaces or do anything custom.

* sprite based, you need to work around T2D's way of thinking, not your way of thinking.

* No option explicit in script. Hell, it won't even throw an error visibly, it'll just run an older version if you have errors. You need to check the console constantly. And it is the easiest thing in the world to make mistakes in your code and never find them!

Strict, or option explicit is everyone's best friend with programming. Anyone who's ever finished anything will tell you that.

Blitzmax ultimately is harder to use but way more flexible and more powerful. So that is why I switched.

Torque2D has built in particle editors and stuff, a good product, but it is not for me.

[Leper]

I think that you've expressed a few good points.. If blitzmax IS more powerful, then I'll stay with BlitzMax! I certainly dont want to waste money on VC++ and T2D to end up being more frustrated.

[Robert Cummings]

You don't actually need C++ to code in torque 2D but you need C++ skills as torque script uses this.

You can actually "code" with the demos of Torque 2D - just mess around with the script files... believe it or not... that IS how you code in Torque 2D. It's a right old mess and you need to put all your files in specific places.

[Sharpfish]

Leper, please don't take this personally - but it seems you are shifting around quite a bit based on feedback from others rather than sticking to a plan. I am only saying that you should focus on what it is you are trying to achieve and not be in so much doubt. I say this because I have learned myself that it gets you no-where. Though I code in C++ and had half written my own 3D engine (in D3D) I made 3 prototypes with it - one of which WOULD have been released by now had I stuck to my guns. I started to doubt my technology and looked around. I looked at BMax (which is GOOD and imo far better for general shareware games than T2D but I am no authority), spent a couple of weeks making 2D game prototypes in it. Then I looked around at nearly every option out there (but never Tourque engine because it didn't offer the kind of hands on I require). Then I came full circle back to my own engine for a while. Eventually I built a hybrid library from my own game engine, 3rd part open source renderers (more robust) and add librarys (sound, physics etc). This is now, I feel, the perfect solution for my needs - but had I just stuck with this option back then I would be farther along than I am. And I have a firm plan, and have been working for almost 2 yeas on my project (not a specific game) and try to stay focussed.

That was just to give you my view of it. Now getting back to the issue, you simply have to DO it rather than worry about it. You haven't mentioned what kind of games you plan on making long term and if it is a serious games business, a music business or if you are merely a shareware gaming fanatic (I have seen all three sides in posts from you, and I am sure you came here as a player who was "in love with shareware").
I belive you started a couple of threads on selling music then changed your mind again and said you would just stick to free music, for example.

The reason I am saying this is

a:You start a lot of threads that amount to nothing because you change your mind. And a while before you joined we all got told to reduce signal to noise ratio - there are a LOT of threads dealing with T2D and BMAX already on here. Of course it is no business of mine, and I don't even mind - but the forum may start to get filled with that kind of thing again and I don't want to see it headed the way it was (private forum).

b:You should get on the drawing board and drawn up some plan so people can advise you more clearly based on your requirements.

Maybe the above will help you see things clearly. Focus should be your priority now rather than worrying about engine x or language y because you won't truly be happy with either until you work out what YOU want/Need to do.

rgds

[Leper]

Paul,

I sincerely thank you for your comments. I also wanted to address to others in concern that I may be frustrating anyone with my posts, as far as if I am cluttering the boards or anything like that. The last thing I want to do is alienate myself from the people here. I really like the people here and look up to many of you. I find it amazing what you guys have done, I look up to you guys and I want to be like you guys. I've always wanted to make Games since I was a kid, but I never got far like you guys did because I have switched from things and changed my mind so many times in my life and it has got me nowhere.

I also want you guys to know, that the advice everyone has given me thus far has been wonderful. I dont want to be expelled, its the last thing I want. I will change my behavior on these forums and stop starting topics that should be researched first, and I will PM people if I have questions from now on. I'm sorry for cluttering the forums and do feel free to delete my posts.

About me:
#1) I am a shareware enthusiest. I grew up playing shareware! I love the concept and still do.

#2) I am very creative, I love to create things, I love making music.

#3) Music for free? Not for free? Ok, the music is for free and will be until I have a SOLID business.

#4) What games will I make? I am working on a Space invaders game right now.

#5) Game engine Game engine? I didnt know how hard physics was to profram and after I found out T2D offered a solution I sat and thought about it for a day and then posted this topic. I didnt search the forums first, I should have. Sorry about that.

#6) Changing my mind alot? Yes I do that, its a quirk of mine, a personality flaw if you will. I gotta stick to my guns. If anyone has this same quirk and defeated it PM me, maybe we can be friends together and encourage each other to stick to our guns and be strong.

I do not want to regress. I want to progress. I want to become a great developer and music creator. I want to own a business in 1 year, but not yet. I plan on starting an enterprising company in 1 year that will cost money to start up (I dont have that money yet) I want to have a business that makes music AND games. I will have a good solid business registered LLC or INC and have everything in order.. I just need to STOP changing my mind so much so I can finally realize this dream..

That is all, again I apologize to the moderators for frustrating them, and for those members that have been aroudn long. I want to be a good part of this communitym, not a bad.

[Sharpfish]

Paul,
I also want you guys to know, that the advice everyone has given me thus far has been wonderful. I dont want to be expelled, its the last thing I want. I will change my behavior on these forums and stop starting topics that should be researched first, and I will PM people if I have questions from now on. I'm sorry for cluttering the forums and do feel free to delete my posts.

Hey that makes me sound like a bad guy it is not my place to make you feel like that, I was just saying things how I see them and I am probably in the minority (I usually am).

I would just like to help you to help yourself make your decisions more quickly and more strongly because that is the best thing I have learned to do over the last few years. As I said I would stray from subject to subject and interest to interest (Music, coding, writing etc). We all do it to some degree so don't feel bad. I am just saying now is the ideal time to get out your book of plans and work through them and filter out the baggage and focus on the one thing you really want to do. It takes so much commitment and energy to do anything right that you could end up spreading yourself too thinly.

So, no need to rush it - just have a good think about where you are heading and draw up plans that fit in with that - and do it with confidence because you can do whatever you want to do, there are no guarantees of success but you may as well give it your best shot.

[Robert Cummings]

Don't take this the wrong way but back-tracking isn't something I particularly like. Stand by your decisions (regarding your posts). And stand by your first chosen dev platform. Become elite at Blitzmax. Rome wasn't built in a day.

You don't need to pay people. Get an IRC client and jump on

server: irc.blitzed.org
channel: #blitzbasic

Someone there will always be on hand to help you in realtime - for free. All they ask is that you show a willingness to learn. You can say I sent ya

[Abscissa]

http://www.garagegames.com/products/62#features


I think that I made a mistake buying BlitzMax.. I think Torque2D is way better now. Dangit! Is this true? Is Torque2D's features and editors THAT good? Anyone use it yet?

I have Torque 2D. I do like it, but the only reason I'm not using it for commercial games is that it lacks Direct3D 7 support. Which I, personally, consider important. But as is the case with anything, your mileage may vary.

[Robert Cummings]

Apparently it works fine with only Direct X 7 installed.

[Abscissa]

Apparently it works fine with only Direct X 7 installed.

Unless something's changed since I last looked at it (I'll have to look again), it uses OpenGL instead of Direct3D when the system's DirectX is below version 8. But if they really did get a D3D7 renderer in there already (Last I heard it was one of the lowest things on their list of priorities) then I'll have to get back to it really quick

[JoshW]

Hey guys,

Josh from GarageGames here. I'm the co-architect of T2D, along with Melv May, and I just noticed this thread. Being so busy, I rarely get as much time as I'd like to check out forums, but I find the boards here interesting to read when I do get a chance.

I just wanted to offer my thoughts on the subject of this thread, and I'm sorry I'm kind of late to the game here. I’m not going to dig into a detailed analysis of T2D vs Blitzmax, as I don’t think it’d be quite fair for me to speak to Blitz’ strengths and weaknesses. But I did want to talk about Torque 2D, as I’ve seen a few threads like this here and in other places online. We don’t often have time to reply to the T2D comments that are out there (both good and bad), but I wish we did.

Let me start out by saying that I’ll gladly admit the fact that there is lots more we can do with Torque 2D—and I’m always excited when I get to work on T2D and try to make it better than ever. At the same time, I honestly think T2D is the best overall solution out there right now, and it should be considered strongly for most any 2D game project. I understand that T2D won’t be perfect for every person or every project; no tool could be… but it’s an awfully nice little engine even as it stands right now.

As for the specific issues brought up in this thread, I think there were some fine points made. It is always useful for me and the rest of the team to hear constructive feedback. And we do our best to take it all into account and address anything that needs to be changed or fixed up. After all, we’re trying to make T2D the best engine we can so that it’ll help all you guys, so hearing what you think about it is a very good thing for us! I would like to address a few items that were brought up in this thread though:

Regarding scripting and script debugging... yes, debugging in TorqueScript right now can be a bit painful when you’re first starting out and aren’t used to it. A lot of people don’t know it, but Torque actually does have nice built-in script debugging capabilities. Especially with Torque 1.4… you can watch variables, set breakpoints, step through scripts, etc, etc. The problem was, in the past, that there wasn’t a really great TorqueScript editor that really took good advantage of these features. Now, however, we have a couple community-developed script editors on the way that are really, really promising. Check out Torsion and TorqueDev. Torsion is planned to be cross-platform, and TorqueDev is Windows-specific. In the future, we also plan to have a simple in-engine script editor (though I can’t commit to any kind of delivery timeframe for that). So, there’s been a lot of progress on this front already, and there’s more good stuff on the way.

As for using C++… you certainly can use C++ in T2D. This is the same as using C++ in Torque itself (only it’s actually easier in T2D). There is a Torque 3D game coming out soon, Wildlife Tycoon: Venture Africa, which was coded entirely in C++. I think the place people sometimes get caught up here is that there isn’t an immediately obvious “main()” loop in Torque that you can plug into. However, in T2D we did make this easier by creating a pretty obvious function that is called on every frame (“onSceneUpdate()”). So, you can plug into C++ easily whenever and however you like in T2D. I’d note again though that you absolutely *do not* need to know or use C++ at all to make games with Torque 2D. You can script your entire game, and as far as I know, at least a couple of the currently released T2D games are written purely in script.

In terms of rendering to surfaces… we do currently support creating new images using our bitmap functionality, and that’s how we do some of they dynamic texture stuff you see out there. Of course, this is all software-driven, since we don’t require render-to-texture support in T2D or anything. Also, in the next release of T2D, we have support for drawing primitives (eg lines, boxes, circles) directly, rather than having to be purely bitmap-oriented.

On script file organization, you do not need to have your script files in onerous or particular places in T2D. I think the reason some people have this misconception is that the basic Torque-based game script example directory we shipped with T2D isn’t the most intuitive thing in the world. That’s our fault, so in the next release we are quite thoroughly rearranging the default example script and resource directory structures so that they’re much easier to understand and to customize. And of course, this didn’t take any C++ code changes on our end… so you can, right now, rearrange your script structures however you like.

For DirectX / driver / hardware support... Torque 2D-based games have been accepted on all the major online casual and indie game distribution portals, including Big Fish, Yahoo, Shockwave, Real, MSN, and many more. T2D games have also (and are right now) being commissioned by some major casual game aggregators / distributors. Such companies are all about selling as many copies of games as possible, and they won’t accept games whose target markets are unduly limited by system specs. By sheer fact that we’ve been vetted and approved by these big distributors who are so concerned about having their games reach broad online market distribution, I think we can safely say that our graphics support is good enough to alleviate most anyone’s concerns about DX / driver / hardware support and market penetration.

Okay, those are most of the particular issues raised here, I think.

To note, Leper, I’m not recommending that you personally use T2D; nor am I singling out Robert by any means. (Indeed, Robert and I have talked at length via email and on the GG forums; he’s a good guy, and if T2D isn’t quite right for his projects, that’s cool.)

[JoshW]

Okay that was the specific stuff, now, let me try to address some of the more general concerns I sometimes see out there regarding T2D. For our part, our goal with Torque 2D is to create the most powerful and easy to use 2D game engine around. We want to make sure T2D is easy for indies to get their hands on so they can compete with the bigger games and studios. We’re trying to make sure T2D makes creating your own games faster and easier for most everyone.

I think we're already pretty far along... in fact, I think we can easily and honestly claim we’ve got the bit about being the most powerful down already today. We certainly cover the standard 2D engine features, and have a bunch of stuff on top that other solutions don’t offer: a super particle system, full-on continuous collision detection on customizable shapes, an optional rigid body physics simulation, networking features, an advanced tile system, a full GUI / event system, and more. We are cross-platform, including console support, for both development and distribution, we’re hardware-accelerated, and well... we do a lot of stuff right, I think. I believe T2D has some big advantages over other technologies, and honestly we can’t wait to implement the rest of the plans we have for Torque 2D.

For the ease of use of the engine, we’re off to a good start, but we definitely have a ways to go there. We put a lot of work into making T2D simple to use and to get started with. We’ve got a pretty easy to understand yet very powerful object model, it’s easy to create a new T2D game or scene, we provide some helpful tools out of the box (and there are many more on the way), we have *a lot* of tutorials and docs, and you don’t need to code any C++ at all (though you can if you want) to make a game. Also, there’s been a ton more work done on the ease of use front behind the scenes in the past few months as well, and a lot of that will be released to the public in the near future. On this front as well though, we want to do a whole lot more in the future, and ease of learning and use will continue to be a big focus for us in the coming months.

Just trying to step back and look at the situation from afar, I think it’s pretty clear that T2D is a great tool for gamedev. A strong testament to that is the fact that T2D is still in Early Adopter (for just a little while longer), but there have already been several shipped games made with it. Those include Argus Teaches Math, Gold Fever, Little Gods, and the brand new Fortune Tiles. Internally here at GG, we’re also developing a really cool T2D game that’ll be out soon. And I know of several other titles in active development.

So, in the space of just a few months, with an Early Adopter engine, there have already been fully functional games created, tested, and released... and there’s lots more brewing in the T2D community, at GG itself, and in larger game studios. Some of the games that are out already (eg Little Gods) are very cool. Some of them (eg Gold Fever) have sold extremely well and reached mass distribution. Looking at the big picture, it seems pretty clear that the tool is useful to lots of folks. And it’s just going to get better from here as we release the updates we’ve been working on for the past few months, and continue to push forward on T2D after that.

I don’t mean to sound cocky or anything in the above. I hope I’m making it clear that I know there’s a lot more we can, should (and will!) do with T2D. And we *definitely* appreciate constructive feedback. But I just wanted to address some of the general comments and concerns people have expressed regarding T2D. Overall, T2D is a top-notch game engine, and its licensing model certainly puts it within easy reach of indies (which is truly who we’re trying to help the most).

We’ve been working our butts off on T2D for the past few months and have a bunch of new updates to unleash soon. With the forthcoming release, I hope folks who checked T2D out previously and found it wasn't quite right for their project will take another look. I really just want to see people making cool games, and I think T2D is a great solution in many cases. Melv, myself, and other T2D’ers stay up late at night working on T2D because the thought of helping people make their own games drives us.

So… yes, T2D isn't right for every project or every person. And sure, there are some issues to be addressed in T2D in general. I hope the specific info above helps make it clear that there are sometimes misconceptions about T2D out there, and it does in fact already do a lot of what people want it to (though, the fact that people don’t know it means we’re making things too tough to find, which is certainly our fault!).

If it seems like a close call between T2D and other engines, I would recommend in clear conscious that you place your bets on us. T2D is already in great shape and we are diehard committed to making T2D absolutely rock for game development. We're striving to improve it all around, and we’re having a blast doing it. There’s a big update on the way soon, and we’re going to follow that up with more and more cool stuff from here out.

Okay, thanks for reading guys, and I hope this message comes off the right way. Best of luck on all your projects, no matter what technologies you use!

[bob123]

One of my problems with T2D is that their is no demo of the actual program that you can test to see if you like it Looks great tho!

[jankoM]

One of my problems with T2D is that their is no demo of the actual program that you can test to see if you like it Looks great tho!

That is exactly my problem with t2d too. If you think it is worth buying - why can't we try it like it's usual with any dl software? I would not even buy a game or anything that I can't see how it works before and surelly not a development tool/engine where whole point is "how it works on the inside".

[Robert Cummings]

Torque 2D is a great product, I'll stand by what I said there. I am happy to learn of the new enhancements and about wildlife tycoon's use of C++.

One of the main reasons I became unhappy was because as my game grew, so did the organisation: bugs were creeping in all over the place due to lack of quality C++ style option explicit and debugging.

I feel Torque has to have strict/option explicit where you need to declare your vars in script, and even closer ties with C++ - perhaps removing the script entirely...

Other than that, one of the major things I miss in Blitzmax right now is the great physics and collisions of T2D - that is possibly my favorite part of it.

So there are pro's and cons, but Blitzmax still remains the dev platform of choice at this moment in time.

Good luck with T2D Josh, good to hear from you

[JoshW]

So you guys know, we definitely agree about the trial version. For now, we figured the best use of time is to focus on core dev work and docs, rather than trials and demos (which, when it comes down to it, are really marketing tools... and while we certainly want to get the word out about T2D and have a bunch of people trying it out... I would feel bad about leaving our current customers hanging in Early Adopter mode while we work on trial versions.). Once we're out of Early Adopter though, we'll push hard on getting trial versions done. So, thanks for that feedback... we stronlgy agree!

Robert, good to see you too.

[Dan MacDonald]

Josh Williams = Most verbose and hard working Dev around. It's not uncommon to see Josh around the GG offices well after midnight.

[wazoo]

I think we're already pretty far along... in fact, I think we can easily and honestly claim we’ve got the bit about being the most powerful down already today. We certainly cover the standard 2D engine features, and have a bunch of stuff on top that other solutions don’t offer: a super particle system, full-on continuous collision detection on customizable shapes, an optional rigid body physics simulation, networking features, an advanced tile system, a full GUI / event system, and more. We are cross-platform, including console support, for both development and distribution, we’re hardware-accelerated, and well... we do a lot of stuff right, I think. I believe T2D has some big advantages over other technologies, and honestly we can’t wait to implement the rest of the plans we have for Torque 2D.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post here Josh. It's definitely awesome to see what's going into T2D.

I was just checking out the homepage now, and there's no mention of any networking support (despite your comment above). Is this a feature of the release version, or is it available already in the pre-release (and just not mentioned on the list of features for the engine)?

thanks!

[jankoM]

So you guys know, we definitely agree about the trial version. For now, we figured the best use of time is to focus on core dev work and docs, rather than trials and demos

Ok, I understand and agree with your reasons now. Thanks.

[Screwball]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post here Josh. It's definitely awesome to see what's going into T2D.

I was just checking out the homepage now, and there's no mention of any networking support (despite your comment above). Is this a feature of the release version, or is it available already in the pre-release (and just not mentioned on the list of features for the engine)?

thanks!

The EA Version only has turn based network support. The 1.1 patch when released AFAIK is supposed include some realtime networking options.

[wazoo]

The EA Version only has turn based network support. The 1.1 patch when released AFAIK is supposed include some realtime networking options.

Thanks Screwball. I found the Torque2D forums and they confirmed the same thing.

Thanks!

[JoshW]

Yeah, the current release has limited turn-based networking. The new forthcoming release still won't have full-on action style networking (so you can't do Tribes 2D or something , but we've enhanced the existing networking and added a couple new options. Details will be available @ GG when it comes.

Thanks for reading the giant post above guys... looking back through it, oh man I type too much.

[wazoo]

Yeah, the current release has limited turn-based networking. The new forthcoming release still won't have full-on action style networking (so you can't do Tribes 2D or something , but we've enhanced the existing networking and added a couple new options. Details will be available @ GG when it comes.

Thanks for reading the giant post above guys... looking back through it, oh man I type too much.

Thank [bold]you[/bold] JoshW for posting here to clear things up, along with providing some tidbits of "whats-to-come".

And when it comes to product evaluation purposes for deciding on middleware game software, I don't think you can type ENOUGH.

[Uhfgood]

Yeah but what version of Direct-X does T2D REQUIRE ?

[Screwball]

Yeah but what version of Direct-X does T2D REQUIRE ?

Direct X Version 8.1 AFAIK

[baegsi]

Changing my mind alot? Yes I do that, its a quirk of mine, a personality flaw if you will. I gotta stick to my guns. If anyone has this same quirk and defeated it PM me, maybe we can be friends together and encourage each other to stick to our guns and be strong.

You said you like being creative - having a curious and flexible mind is the basis to that, so don't worry. The key is probably balance and building trust in your decisions. Stick to your plan but also reserve some space to enquire other options. Change your plan only when you clearly see the benefit. Most times (99%) you won't.