Mouse only controls for casual games?

[Martoon]

Really odd that Realore (makers of "Turtle Odyssey") use an up arrow for their download button... http://www.realore.com/images/download_en.gif

Guess they're a little egocentric. I mean, from their perspective, it's an upload, right?

[Anthony Flack]

If I had to make a PacMan clone, and I was trying to make it sell well on RealAracde, I would NOT use mouse controls. The kayboard is a better fit for that game. Then again, I wouldn’t make a Pac Man clone if I had a choice because the core play mechanic does not lend itself to intuitive mouse controls.

Well this is what I'm getting at here. First, you would decide to make the Pac Man game keyboard only. Then, immediately after that decision, you would decide not to make it at all, and make a mouse pointer game instead. That is the logical conclusion of this line of thinking. It's a real lose-out situation.

These mouse pointer games make good money I'm sure. But I am so bored of mouse pointer games, I don't want to see any more right now. It's getting to the point where I'm starting to forget why I ever liked videogames in the first place. Not good. I am really, really hoping to see more games where you directly control your avatar.

The real question is, whether "keyboard controls are still a better solution than some forms of mouse control" is actually true or not. Because making good mouse controls the goal is killing games for me. I really would like to find out the best way to make other sorts of games work.

My mouse control option is a little different from BF - you don't have to keep slowly moving the mouse further and further to keep going. And it's mostly digitial... and there are some other exceptions... well, it's kind of hard to explain. But I think it sort of works. I should put out another demo soon and see what you think. Of course it's a compromise. But it's not a compromise made for no reason.

[Mike Boeh]

My mouse control option is a little different from BF - you don't have to keep slowly moving the mouse further and further to keep going. And it's mostly digitial... and there are some other exceptions... well, it's kind of hard to explain. But I think it sort of works. I should put out another demo soon and see what you think. Of course it's a compromise. But it's not a compromise made for no reason.

Maybe you're thinking of Hamsterball, because you don't have to keep moving the pointer in Best Friends. You can "peg" the little arrow.

[simonh]

The problem with adding mouse control that 'sort of works' is that it may crate an initial bad impression that your game is unable to recover from.

People are most likely to use the mouse first, and if they don't like how the controls feel straight away, they may not be inclined to start experimenting with the keyboard.

I had similar problems with Super Gerball. Personally I find the mouse control to be absolutely fine. But others find the keyboard easier to use, and sometimes I start questioning whether it is worth keeping the mouse control or not.

In the case of Cletus, I personally would like to see you keep it as a keyboard/joypad only game. It is clearly not a mouse game, and adding something that 'sort of works' may end up working against your game in the long-run.

[Anthony Flack]

Maybe you're thinking of Hamsterball, because you don't have to keep moving the pointer in Best Friends. You can "peg" the little arrow.

When I was playing, it seemed like the arrow would gradually return to the centre if you kept the mouse still, so it required you to keep it moving ever so slightly. I thought that was part of your cunning design. Did I imagine it?

Mine is digital, you peg it at the full extention of the circle and it is "on". The arrow becomes 100% opaque and your little guy is away. Back off a little bit and the arrow becomes 50% opaque and you stop moving. Also, certain actions (like shooting, which makes you stop temporarily) cause the mouse to back off slightly from full extention, so you need to give it a little flick to get going again. Also, things like turning around on the spot don't require full extention of the mouse, and a few other exceptions like that.

In the case of Cletus, I personally would like to see you keep it as a keyboard/joypad only game. It is clearly not a mouse game, and adding something that 'sort of works' may end up working against your game in the long-run.

Well I think it's going to be a case of wait and see what you think next time I beta it. It might be better than you think it is - and my observations of people using the keyboard is that that is also a solution that only "sort of works" for a lot of people. And I can't go around handing out gamepads to everyone, much as I'd like to. So, we find ourselves in this awkward situation.

Will having mouse support spoil the game for people who should have been using the keyboard but don't? I don't know, but I think it really depends how it's handled. There must be an optimal solution, but it needs testing. I think this is an area where the research has been weak.

[Mike Boeh]

When I was playing, it seemed like the arrow would gradually return to the centre if you kept the mouse still, so it required you to keep it moving ever so slightly. I thought that was part of your cunning design. Did I imagine it?

Yes you imagined it. Mine works much like yours, when the arrow is fully extended, it sticks and is fully opaque

[Anthony Flack]

Damn, I must be losing my mind then.

But still, I wonder how much room for experimentation there is in using the mouse in these sorts of ways. The little implementation details could make a big difference.

[Robert Cummings]

I prefer mouse control a lot of the time. It allows me to pick my nose and chill out.

Keyboard control will always be hardcore, including joystick control.

[James C. Smith]

The problem with adding mouse control that 'sort of works' is that it may crate an initial bad impression that your game is unable to recover from.

This is a very important point. Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all. Giving the player the choice between mouse and keyboard is not the ultimate solution because they will likely not understand they had a choice. And it is always dangerous for you (the game creator) to be play balancing your game using one input device and allow the players to use a different input device. Taking it to another extreme, the worse thing you could do is use a joystick or game pad to play test your own game. You will likely end up tuning the difficulty and balancing of the game to be great for gamepad players and not so great for keyboard or mouse players. This would be fine if most players were going to use gamepads. But that is not realistic unless you are making a console game or a game bundled with a gamepad.

[Anthony Flack]

And therein lies the problem, of course. People don't have gamepads any more, damn them. The vicious cycle of games not using them, and people not having them... I'm not sure where it all went wrong, but if it wasn't for the fact that the only open game development platform we have left no longer has game devices attached to it, we wouldn't need to be talking about alternatives.

Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all. Giving the player the choice between mouse and keyboard is not the ultimate solution because they will likely not understand they had a choice.

The thing is though, that "not as good as the keyboard" is subjective, too. The reason I added mouse control was because I observed a fair few non-gamers (who didn't usually play games, but wanted to play mine) having a terrible time struggling to use the keyboard. And I don't know this for sure, but I have a suspicion that the people who wouldn't understand the choice would mostly be the ones who would have had a hard time with the keyboard anyway. Hardcore game players, who would be the natural keyboard users, should hopefully understand the choice. But, we'll see, eh?

I think so much of this area is just guesswork at the moment. Because, with all the fine-tuning and refinement of the classic casual game (and the blueprint is pretty well established now), all the research in this area has concluded with "make a mouse pointer game" and left it at that. And while that is undoubtedly the most accessible and intuitive input device for a casual user, it's also a very restrictive choice for the future of PC games. I love direct avatar control, and I think it gives the game an extra kick if you're directly in charge of your little guy. Not having mouse-pointer controls is certainly points off for accessibility - but direct avatar control may be points on for appeal. Perhaps it will never have the same popularity as mouse-pointer games. But do think it's important that these games continue to be made (I was looking forward to Hero, dammit), and that we figure out the best strategies to go about it - so that at least they can hopefully be profitable, even if they don't become #1.

Is it better just to bite the bullet and go with keyboard only? I don't know. Is mouse control really more of a compromise than using a keyboard if you're not good at using a keyboard? I don't know. Will the choice confuse peole? I don't know. Right now, we're just guessing. I'd like to hear more about the Best Friends experience though - were people confused by that? (The choice is made very plain, about as plain as could possibly be). And were most fans of the game keyboard users or did some appreciate the mouse control? How much of it is down to the game itself (I found BF to be a bit tricky to play with the mouse myself - but on the other hand, I know doing 8-way movement on the cursor keys is basically an impossible ask for many people).

* * * * *

Now, as far as gameplay tuning goes, that is of course where extra complications arise. I use all the different devices when testing, but gamepad and keyboard are pretty much the same thing to me anyway. I will default to the keyboard, but I'm used to using it like a gamepad. I'm probably too good at using the keyboard (judging by other people's performances).

The mouse, though, is a little bit different. I've been playing with the mouse ever since I added it (maybe I'm using it too much - don't want to get too good at it). But the mouse does tend to lend itself to certain things better than others. Running around and blasting things is fine; tricky jumping platformy antics are a bit harder to pull off. This may end up having an influence on the gameplay - I'll probably make sure the running and blasting stays in the foreground, with some of the trickier manouvres being used more for extras and secrets. We'll see. I also have a lot of leeway between people playing on "Easy" and people playing on "Hard". It might be that it's too hectic to play "Hard" with the mouse. It may be a good idea to get a gamepad for that even, if you're not so good with the keyboard. But a mouse user probably shouldn't be playing on "Hard" anyway.

[Mike Boeh]

Here is the platformer i was/am working on, it has mouse controls, but I am not too keen on them... Hero The Dog

They are okay, but it still (well, to me anyway) feels like it was shoehorned...

[svero]

This is a very important point. Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all.

This reminds me of another design conundrum thats slightly off topic, but Ill mention it because it does follow naturally from this comment. I find the same is true of skill levels. I think one of the pitfalls of offering easy/medium/hard to the player is that they may initially pick a skill that isn't fun for them. But then you're of course faced with the fact that different players do in fact have different levels of ability. In Beetle Bomp we dont offer any skill levels except hidden as a feature on the player dialog. However, if you start losing badly the game will popup a message asking you if you want to change to an easier skill level. I think thats a pretty good solution for a game with 2 skill levels because you funnel everyone into the tweaked ideal game (from your own design perspective) and then still give people a chance to switch if its beyond them. (assuming they dont quit really early on but the slight increase in difficulty in the levels mitigates that as the earliest are essentially into levels)

I wonder if a similar thing could work with mouse controls. Maybe play some little tutorial keyboard control thing and if the player is having trouble getting through it then popup an option to let them use the mouse instread. Im not sure how it would work exactly, and mouse may often just be a preference thing, but .. something to think about anyway. I know my ex girlfriend would never play any keyboard games simply because she found using the keys really difficult. So in her case this sort of solution might have worked.

[James C. Smith]

svero: You are right that this is similar to LOD in many ways. But at least most level of difficulty situations involve the user making a choice. I don’t see that decision point happening for the input device. In the situation I am reefing to, the user never knew he had a choice.

[James C. Smith]

I'd like to hear more about the Best Friends experience though - were people confused by that? (The choice is made very plain, about as plain as could possibly be).

Actually, I think the “choice� in Best Friends is not plain at all. By that, I mean most users will have no idea they have a choice. Yes, it is very easy to the switch between mouse and keyboard. It is as simple as it could be. But the user is never presented with a choice. I just downloaded it again and played it to me sure. After downloading and installing the demo I was playing within seconds. Since I used the mouse to launch the game I was playing it with the mouse. It seemed like I was supposed to use the mouse. It worked. Why would I go search for keyboard controls? Since I was never forced to select keyboard or mouse, and the mouse was working, I just used the mouse.

There is nothing wrong with this if you think the mouse controls are good. But if you think the keyboard controls are better, and the mouse is just an option for those who refuse to use the keyboard, then you need to make it more clear that the keyboard is a possibility. I would suggest popping up a dialog box at the start of the game with separate buttons for “Keyboard� and “Mouse�. Force the user to make a conscious decision. Or at least force them to be aware that they can switch controls later if they want.

I stand by my statement that “Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard.� However, I think it is possible to improve the situation a lot if you forced the player to make a conscious decision. Best Friends does not do that. I believe it does exactly what I was afraid of. Ite encourages the player to play with the mouse without ever exploring the keyboard possibility.

I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. If the mouse controls are the preferred input for the design of the game then this is fine. Best Friends is probably fine the way it is. I am just making the point that if you think the game is better played with the keyboard, then adding a mouse option could hurt you more than it helps if it is done wrong. Adding “optional� mouse controls could mean the most player will never use the keyboard controls.

[Anthony Flack]

Perhaps BF has changed, because in the one I have here (v1.01), after you start, you get three enormous pictures on-screen - a joystick, a mouse, and a cursor-keys-and-spacebar. And you have to click on one of them. I don't know if Mike took that out later, but if he did that's kind of interesting too (Mike?)

I've put in something similar, with 3 really big buttons and pictures of mouse, keyboard and gamepad. And also a little bit of guiding text describing the different options (mouse for novice, keyboard for experienced gamers, gamepad: if you have one, use it!) - wording will probably change, and the details of how the interface and menus fit together is being hammered out at the moment... but that's the general idea I'm working with.

[James C. Smith]

That sounds great.

I wonder why Mike changed Best Friends or if I am just crazy.

[Bmc]

That sounds great.

I wonder why Mike changed Best Friends or if I am just crazy.

i've downloaded and played it recently and don't recall being told I have a choice either.

[Rainer Deyke]

It sounds horrible to me, having to use my mouse to click on a button just to get to play the game with a keyboard.

[James C. Smith]

Give me a break. What make syou think you can't navagate the menu buttons with the kayboard? Just press enter and you are playing with the keyboard.

[Mike Boeh]

I did change it, quite early on. The screen to pick controls wasn't necessary... Sorry for the confusion

[Drake]

The screen to pick controls wasn't necessary...

I know I'm just a new guy here , but... I have to say I'm with James on this. An option as important as "what device will I play the game with" needs to be put in the player's face, especially if you're hoping to attract a wide audience (i.e. casual + hardcore). It's just one extra click/keypress, and it could be the difference between them enjoying your game or not.

The screen Anthony described seeing in an older version of your game sounds exactly like the one I have in my (upcoming) game - big pictures, very obvious, very painless prerequisite to starting the game. I show this screen every time the player starts or continues a game, unless they dig into the input options to set a preferred controller.

[Mike Boeh]

I know I'm just a new guy here , but... I have to say I'm with James on this. An option as important as "what device will I play the game with" needs to be put in the player's face, especially if you're hoping to attract a wide audience (i.e. casual + hardcore). It's just one extra click/keypress, and it could be the difference between them enjoying your game or not.

The screen Anthony described seeing in an older version of your game sounds exactly like the one I have in my (upcoming) game - big pictures, very obvious, very painless prerequisite to starting the game. I show this screen every time the player starts or continues a game, unless they dig into the input options to set a preferred controller.

Actually james was agreeing with me. All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.

[Drake]

All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.

Actually, I think the “choice� in Best Friends is not plain at all. By that, I mean most users will have no idea they have a choice. Yes, it is very easy to the switch between mouse and keyboard. It is as simple as it could be. But the user is never presented with a choice. I just downloaded it again and played it to me sure. After downloading and installing the demo I was playing within seconds. Since I used the mouse to launch the game I was playing it with the mouse. It seemed like I was supposed to use the mouse. It worked. Why would I go search for keyboard controls? Since I was never forced to select keyboard or mouse, and the mouse was working, I just used the mouse.

Sorry, am I really confused? That doesn't sound like agreement to me. I thought James was saying that it's fine to allow all input methods on the menus, but that the player should be forced to make a conscious choice of input method before entering the actual game. That would be my opinion, in any case.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm not so sure he was agreeing either, Mike. It sounded like the opposite to me.

I think the choice should really be explicit, too. Not to mention avoiding awkward situations like bumping the mouse when you're trying to play with the keyboard. Oh, and I've been very careful to design the interface so there's no bias towards any input device. You can navigate and play entirely with the mouse, or entirely with the keyboard or gamepad if you like. You can navigate with any input device up until the point you make the choice. And mouse control is always enabled on menus, but disabled for gameplay if you haven't chosen to use the mouse.

[James C. Smith]

Actually james was agreeing with me. All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.

Actually, I was not agreeing with you Mike. I think it is fine that all the controls work all the time.(keyboard and mouse). And I understand that technically the "select controls" menu is not needed. But I think it should be shown anyway. Heck, you could ignore what they click on and still allow all controls to work all the time. But it is still useful to show this option and force them to pick one. Don't display a message and let them just click "OK" to continue. Make them make a decision in their mind. Make them select "Keyboard" or "Mouse". And then, if you want, you can make them both work anyway.

If you don't force them to make this choice, most users will never know the keyboard is an option and will be stuck in mouse world forever.

[Mike Boeh]

I did an a/b with and without that screen for a period of 2 months. The game sold better without the screen. It wasn't by a 2-1 margin or anthing, but it was better. I can't say why, perhaps making them think about the controls isn't a good thing.

[James C. Smith]

I think it depends how well the mouse controls work.

If you have a keyboard game, you may think that adding some optional mouse controls “couldn’t hurt� and may appeal to some players. My point was, in some cases I think it could hurt. If the mouse controls are significantly worse than the keyboard controls, and it is not obvious that the keyboard is an option, then the mouse controls could detract from the game rather than adding to it. Apparently that is not the case is Best Friends but I still think it is something you should carefully consider when adding “optional� mouse controls. You may think this is ridicules. Why would anyone add mouse controls if they were significantly worse than the keyboard controls? Well, they may do it because they think it couldn’t hurt. Player can still use the keyboard if they want to. And they may do it because they personally prefer the keyboard, but everyone tell them they are supposed to add mouse controls to make it “casual�. They may personally hate the mouse controls but hope that they will appease the uncomprehendible player who insists on using the mouse for everything.

I am a little surprised that the version of Best Friends without the forced option did worse. But I am more surprised that the difference was so great. How could a simple A / B choice make the game sell that much worse?

[ManuelFLara]

But I am more surprised that the difference was so great. How could a simple A / B choice make the game sell that much worse?

Actually Mike said the sales difference was not 2 to 1, just that it was better.