Invitation only forum?
I know, this has been discussed often, sorry if you can't hear it anymore, but I'd like to get your opinion about this. From a different thread:
I would really love to see how an invitation only forum would look like. Just as an experiment. Open a new forum. Invite only people who are supposed to be "vets". Newbies are allowed to start new threads (I would be too quite otherwise) but not to post answers. Something like "ask the experts". If someone wants to be registered as an expert, his/her application has to be apporved by the admins. Moderation should not be needed, at most very unfrequently.Originally Posted by Omega
How would such forum look like? I have no idea, but would love to see it happen.
The plus for all non-vets who can only read: one opportunity to procrastinate less, your game will thank you
What do you think?
What makes you think the "vets" will want to stick around to answer questions from newbies, or to talk amongst themselves in a public forum, solely for the benefit of newbies who can't reply?
The forum, as it is right now, offers something for everyone. And even newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not. Stop trying to build a square wheel.
Is it true that there is no more moderating on here? I think there is moderation, but the moderators themselves aren't making any posts.
Uups
Just to make something clear: I do not intend to offend newbies (I'm one by myself) or something like that. But, every day there's a response like: "you haven't made a game yet, so just be quiet" etc...
Personally, I believe we benefit from all opinions, also from newbies. However, we never know until we tried.
So: don't take this too seriously. My question is: what would you think about such a forum as an experiment?
I can imagine Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos, MSN, Webcrawler, Northernlight & AskJeeves on the hypothetical "Search Engine" forum: "Hey, ignore that newbie Google - what the heck does he know about seach engines anyway?".....
Sometimes the new kid on the block does have all the answers.
I Like It. Parts Of It.
There are a lot of folks on these forums that would disagree with you. (I, obviously, am not one of those people!)
However, if there was an entire section of private, invite-only forums on this site that was inaccessable (read or write) to uninvited members, I would imagine there might be some very valuable conversations to take place. The bigger guys that only want to have very serious conversations with other professionals could have their way, while others can dually bleed into the public forums. I'd think of it like conversations behind closed doors. Not everyone wants to contend with immature and ignorant banter, but would still like a forum to share their ideas with their peers.
Daniel Kinney
solaristudios:. ● TIGRS - The Independent Game Rating System ● "Hard-Sell: The Only Sell"
There Is Moderation
I can say from a particular experience I had earlier today that there is definitely moderation going on! (Would a lot of you folks liked to have seen me banned?)
Daniel Kinney
solaristudios:. ● TIGRS - The Independent Game Rating System ● "Hard-Sell: The Only Sell"
Oh, I know. I would even bet we're thinking of exactly the same person
There is already a private forum for people who've actually released products, though. How does your idea differ from it?However, if there was an entire section of private, invite-only forums on this site that was inaccessable (read or write) to uninvited members, I would imagine there might be some very valuable conversations to take place. The bigger guys that only want to have very serious conversations with other professionals could have their way, while others can dually bleed into the public forums. I'd think of it like conversations behind closed doors. Not everyone wants to contend with immature and ignorant banter, but would still like a forum to share their ideas with their peers.
The signal to noise ratio on the Dexterity forums was high because:
a) the indie scene was a lot smaller back then, and
b) it was damn difficult to find the forums in the first place
A similar thing happened when hoards of AOL unwashed were unleashed on Usenet back in the '90's. IndieGamer has now appeared on the radar of the AOL of game development, gamedev.net.
Oh. Didn't Realize!
Oh. There is? Hah!Didn't know it! I guess that settles that... I suppose it's hidden from the non-invited folk, eh?
Daniel Kinney
solaristudios:. ● TIGRS - The Independent Game Rating System ● "Hard-Sell: The Only Sell"
Yeah, you have to request access to one of the admins, and have a published title under your belt. That's pretty much it in the way of entry requisites.
The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club.
The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club.
Hahaha!!
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!ROTFLMAO!!!
Daniel Kinney
solaristudios:. ● TIGRS - The Independent Game Rating System ● "Hard-Sell: The Only Sell"
Umm, we already have a private forum (search the archives for more details). Though it's not a very chatty board. It's mostly used by established devs that have questions/comments/requests, which they don't want viewable to the general public.
-Retro64 does post semi-regularly (He just made a new topic the other day).The only vet who posts here now is John Smith. Posts from Retro64, Dan MacDonald, PomPom, Dexterity, just do not happen anymore.
-PomPom (BongPig) has divorced himself from this board because they're headed in a different direction. It really has nothing to do with the quality of the board, IMO.
-Dexterity(Steve P) has pretty much left the shareware game industry entirely. His site is on auto-pilot and he's focusing on public speaking. Again, has nothing to do with this board.
-Dan is probably the only one who's been MIA lately that you listed.
-You didn't mention Svero but he still posts very frequently every day. As does Arcadetown (Brian).
Also, don't ignore some of the newer successful Indies like Gabriel, Cliffski and others. Or some us who are on the fringe of success like me, Jack Norton, Princec and Nexic.
As for moderation, the board is still being moderated actively even with the waiting period. Everyday we're moving threads to the appropriate forum. Also many times we delete bad posts within 5-10 minutes, which you'll never see. Not quite sure how you got the impression that this forum isn't being moderated.
EDIT: Of course by the time I submitted this post, the private forum question had been addressed. Need to type faster.
Okay, but the idea would be more something like "ask the experts" where everyone (newbies and vets) can start a thread but only vets can answer. And it would be readable for everyone. That would be the difference.
Ok. I'll delurk for a second. This thread regularly pops up and I think most people miss some pretty fundamental forces at work:
- There are no right answers. I think this is the most important part to understand (and it usually takes the longest). To pick a concrete example, I make a nice profit by advertising using Google Adwords, most people don't. So does it work for you? Find out by yourself ..
- The corollary to the first point is that discussing a topic again and again might actually be pretty productive. If the participants are new to it. When you are just getting into running your own business everything is new. And you might gain a lot of understanding by discussing your current issues with peers in the same situation. So talking for the nth time about Going Indie is very productive for those who are new. And many non-published, non-experienced people might actually have a fresh viewpoint that's much more interesting than the jaded veteran might provide.
- The longer you stay around and the longer you have been running your business the higher the probability that you have either seen the topic discussed a few times already or that your particular situation is just so specialized that what works for you no longer applies to the more general case. But if the thread even remotely affects someones business you can be pretty sure they at least scan it through. That's just plain business sense. And often people delurk and write about their favourite topics and it's always a very interesting read. (Thanks again Brian for the great posts on incentives and nag screens!)
I've been on the forums since fall 2002, a month or so after they started. And I've been working as a full time indie longer, and as a published indie almost as long. I still see a lot of familiar faces from the beginning and a lot of newer faces that are now pretty familiar. I used to have more posts than Cas (and Sonicron).. Today I have very little to contribute. The easy questions are usually answered when I log on, and specialized topics that I know a lot about are rare. I'm pretty solid with my own business strategy, and even if I'm eagerly learning from everyone I no longer have the urgent need to use the forum as a sounding board. But when I can contribute I usually do. And I read or scan most of the topics.
IMHO this is a very mature and working forum. And as a general resource for professional Indie game development (whatever that is) the best one on the net.
Hey, what has happened to Dan, anyway?
And again, I ask: What's in it for the "vets"? Why would they visit a forum were they couldn't find discussion, just questions for them to answer?
You can't expect the sucessful ones to spend much of their time helping us, when they have much bigger fish to fry. However they do post and comment when needed. When someone new posts about "What reg system shall I use" or "Can we really make a living out of shareware?" why should they answer? They have answered those questions 100s of times, and most of us know the information to pass it on anyway.
This forum is still very valuable, especially for people needing feedback on their game, or people who want to find out sales stats. It can also be fun discussing varius things.
Well, they used to do just that back at the dexterity board. Newbies (and vets) posted questions. Vets replied, newbies didn't (besdides follow up questions and such). Most of the time at least, though you got the occasional exception.
I disagree. I don't think the forum have a lot to offer at all, the way it is now, and I would like to see that change, which I guess is why I'm annoying a lot of people, who'd rather keep their little club the way it is.
I also don't agree that newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not. I think it's the other way around, only very rarely do I think a newbie contribute anything of value. And I'd be happy to sacrifice those occasional nuggets for an overall higher quality.
Question: Having been around since the Dexterity days, and presumably having covered quite a lot of ground since that time - what sort of information are you looking for?
The most important bit about a forum is you don't have to answer.
This forum's still quite invaluable and I'd be bored without it. I look here for TIGsource news (and of course, games to play!) I like to chart the wobbly progress of Puppygames here for people to gloat over. I like to help out the odd Java-toe-in-the-water poster. Everyone's by and large really nice and it's even fun watching Omega, ERoberts and soniCron sniping at each other like a bunch of girls
The fact is all the right people are here, and the reason why some people may not be happy with the kinds of discussion that are made here is because the right people don't want to talk about it because they can't be arsed. And that's their prerogative.
Cas
If you want to make the forums better, then make high-quality insightful posts and be an example to others. Bitching and whining only invites more bitching an whining. Like I used to say to Ghandi in the old days: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
I'm always happy to provide some entertainment valueit's even fun watching Omega, ERoberts and soniCron sniping at each other like a bunch of girls
That's not a solution though. The problem is that good posts get lost in all the noise. I don't want more high-quality insightful posts, I want less crap posts. I don't believe that will be achieved by me not posting (tried that, doesn't help), and therefore I keep sharing this opinion of mine. Maybe eventually people will listen, and if not, it still feels like I'm trying to do something, rather than just give up on the forum, like some have.
I just want to add a quick opinion:
I do believe that newbies can have something valuable. However, when they say, without having a single game out, that their first one will sell XXX copies and laugh at my comments, I really feel I shouldn't post anymore
They can give advice in other field, but what the hell, you CAN'T talk about how many copies you'll sell if you never released a game. I think those have still their mind confused by the triumphant proclamation of Pavlina that could have been true in 1999 but surely not nowadays.
When someone like funpause make a game who sells 50 a day FROM HIS SITE, and someone insist that's just a "nice work", I really wonder why he says that...
When I was making my games USM I had low expectation, like to sell max 20 a month. My first month sold 10, and is still my best one.
Modesty is a virtue who has almost disappeared...
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Wouldn't this seperate the "newbies" and "pros" too much?Okay, but the idea would be more something like "ask the experts" where everyone (newbies and vets) can start a thread but only vets can answer. And it would be readable for everyone. That would be the difference.
If you register on a forum and have a few post (say <100 or so) it doesn't always mean you are an amateur in the field.
There are people here with years of experience in game business but with only a few posts.
That doesn't mean you have to see these people as "they are new here, what do they know about that".
I like these forums very much and for me they are perfect like they are.!
Thumbs up for the guys who pay for all this!
Didier
you dont want to push new users away because you want to form an elitist club/forum.
A newbie to the forum, can still possibly create a game and sell it, at what point is he indoctrinated into the club/forum.
If you seperate users, you split the community. This reminds me of the jocks in school.
Like any social group that matures, ordinary human behaviour is the driving force for what that group gets up to! You can't do anything about it, so just go with the flow. I don't see any noise posts in the forum, ever.
Cas
Separating newbies and pros is a GOOD thing. There's already a natural separation (experience) and it's better to keep that separation than try to hide or ignore it!
And by newbies, I mean people new to independent game making, not new to the messageboard.
Hey, Jack, remember when you where new here? I think your first post was about your game (USM) not selling very well, and you got loads of good solid advice from people with experience selling their game :-) I remember you posting a lot when you were new, but at least it was mostly questions, not opinions about things you didn't have experience in. I've noticed you post a lot less now, but with higher quality posts! And THAT's a good thing!
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