Wow, that is insane. And the music isnt that bad, in fact I like it.Originally Posted by josh.syntesis.org
I will be sure to keep you on my contact list.
Artist : Josh Whelchel
Site : http://josh.syntesis.org
Hey there, and Ho there!
I am primarily a tracker, but I also have a professional setup capable of many other things. I don't know exactly what to say, so just check out my site:
I find my rates to be extremely competitve, sometimes even considered insane.
$12.00 per 3 min of royalty free original music?? Is that right??
Perhaps you should take a listen, The Spirit Engine includes 76 tracks done for no money at all. Completely free. It's about 2.2 hours of music, too. (:
I'm not knocking the tunes, I'm just saying that I'd be very wary of hiring someone for $4 per minute. I'd be quite concerned that they'd even finish the project because their incentive to work would be almost nil.Originally Posted by TwiTerror
I don't agree with you SoniCron. For $4 you can just give him a try. What's the loss? Everyone needs to start somewhere and if he is offering a service for cheap it does not mean that the service is cheap.
P.S. I am not affiliated with the guy
the examples sound very nice josh and I would certainly consider paying $12 per track of that quality, nice work
$12.00 for a 3 minute track....
Is it 100% royal free to use in my games?
Original work to my specifications?
Can I sell it as my own?
Who maintains ownership of the music?
I'm interested in the answers to those questions too. I need three tracks or so, and in addition to your very attractive rates, I quite dig your music
Is it 100% royal free to use in my games?) Generally, I make quotes based on specific projects. I like to look at what is needed by the client and generate a custom offer based on that. The rates are the main factor in determining this price, but the amount of time given, and any special requirments can alter the price. Or, for example, if the project is considered to be very large (50 tracks or more) then I may ask for royalties, or a different price be quoted. And everything is negotiable.Originally Posted by dxgame
Original work to my specifications?) This is what I like to do best. I love, in particular, sitting down with a storyboard or script and making music that will flow with it well.
Can I sell it as my own?) Selling it as your own just depends on the project, but for the most part the answer is yes, given that I still have the right to include the music on demo CDs or collection albums of myself. This is generally a project-specific question, but the answer again, will usually be yes. (I can't really imagine when it would be no, but I like to leave the option open?)
Who maintains ownership of the music?) This is another project-specific question. For my non-freeware projects to date, the answer has always been the game developer/distributor. I don't see where this would be any problem. Remember, I'm writing music for you and your project.
If you are interested in hiring, of course, check my hire page.
Here is a Indiegame Developer exclusive sample of some different stuff.
A catchy action track
This isn't really supposed to be suspenseful or crazy action, it's actually one of the many battle songs in a sidescrolling 2D RPG.
A dramatic revelation track
This is designed to follow a script, and includes a few themes from the game.
These were both composed in ModPlug tracker, which I specialize in. They are IT conforming files (no dodgy ModPlug tricks), and they can be compressed with WSF, as most of my game projects to date have. I also specialize in non-tracked (freegear) work.
Last edited by TwiTerror; 07-19-2005 at 06:43 AM. Reason: Added a sample and some more response
Though I like to see you around here josh, please don't do this mate.
Selling music for virtually nothing is bad for our business. I don't want to seem greedy, but some of us takes this seriously and consider it our living.
Don't be ridiculous when quoting prices, good music is worth much much more.
I hate to sound like a capitalist pig dog but I agree with Merlin somewhat, even though I don't actually sell my music. Of course.. it's up to you I think the trouble is people just get used to not spending much on things and then it's nothing special. Just like 'internet people' throw their hands in the air at the very thought of BUYING music thanks to P2P
I certainly didn't intend on offending anyone, and I'm sorry. It's just my way of buisness by building a reputation first, gaining the necessary experience before becoming an option some people can't afford.
I also plan on making a living out of writing music, but right now that's just not possible for me. So hopefully, after gaining the trust and respect of a community, and coming up with a proper budget for purchasing gear, I can make a living out of this.
This already is a step up for me after writing for over 10 freeware projects, at an average of 11 tracks each, one exceeding 75 tracks.
I know your work is important to you, and I'd reccomend you to my clients in a heartbeat, but right now I don't have any problem being competitive in this way.
However, in the eye of not corrupting our buisness, I will consider raising my prices. However, for anybody who I've already quoted it will remain sound, or anybody who mentions this thread before August 1st, 2005, I will remain at the $12/$4.
Sorry, and thanks,
I don't agree with you. He may get some contracts because his musics are cheap. Some may however still use "expensive" composers as they will think they will be better. Everyone will choose the one that better fits his needs. But I don't understand how you can say to somone something like: "you are not expensive enough, you will get too many customers and other ones won't be able to have contracts!".Originally Posted by Melin
afraid of a little competition?
if Twiterror needs to build up a portfolio of commercial work, and the quickest way to do that is by having a low price point, then why not?
when new biscuits are launched in the supermarket they always have a lower price than the products currently controlling the market, its the quickest way of getting people to try them out, and its guaranteed that a month down the track the price is hiked up, sometimes more than the older products too.
i say give the guy a chance to build up some contacts, everyone has to start somewhere
i hate analogies, they always manage to make people sound like twats, so i always pick a random item to use as the example
plus, i like biscuits
Actually no, competition itself is great for our business.Originally Posted by mooktown
And the building a portfolio argument isn't really relevant, as bigger companies doesn't care at all if you've worked for 1000s of sharewares. What matters more is your demo, which by the way would be free for Twiterror to improve on, and to help him get descent jobs in the future.
I'm definitely not trying to discourage anyone, and I've known josh before the time of indiegamer.com.
Just adding my two cents, keep up the good work!
I can't see what's wrong with keeping his prices low. It's entirely his perogative. If you're being honest the only reason you object is that you think he'll get more work as his price is cheaper. Competition actually improves things believe it or not.
And it sounds like you're talking about price fixing. Highly dubious!
Last edited by luggage; 07-31-2005 at 07:12 AM.
Originally Posted by MelinGlad we agree.Originally Posted by luggage
But that's all this is though, competition. I don't see why you're against his prices if you think compeition is a good thing then.
Ferraris aren't trying to compete on a price point with Fiat.
(not that you're the Fiat of the music world Josh )
Hello, well, the price depends on many factors. I manage a studio in Italy and our lower overhead let us keep the prices low, compared to other usa and european studios. But prices are not "magic numbers" that studios decide one day... rely on costs, on overhead, on investments, involve evaluating product features and customer benefits and marking up your cost of production...Originally Posted by luggage
But in Josh proposal... well, the price is irrelevant. $12 per track or $4 per minute means "I work for free, but I don't want people think I work for free".
That is ok, since he is building a resume. Also, if he has money to invest on himself... let him invest the money. When you work for free, you invest money on you, because you can't cover any costs.
Well this is certainly an interesting thread!!
All I can say to those of you who think that Josh charging $12 per track or whatever is somehow insulting to other so called 'professional' musicians,let me just make a point as regards to myself(and others like me ) for instance!
I pretty much do not have 2 dimes to rub together.When I finish my next game (and god knows when that will be ),I'll be looking to add a few music tracks to finish it up.
Now,what are my options.......hmmmm.....let me see now....
1)Write the music myself........don't think so,I do not have a musical bone in my body!!
2)Buy music from a pro studio......Again not an option due to cash(or lack thereof to be more precise).
3)Don't use any music........Years ago maybe,these days I don't think so.
4)Buy music from a startup musician..........Well what do you know,this is the option for me and other indies in my position.
I appreciate too that everyone wants to make a living from their chosen profession,be it musician,graphics artist or programmer.
However last time I looked we were living in a democracy where each individual has the right to decide for him/herself what they are going to do and how much they are going to charge others for their services.
So if Josh or other startups want to give their work away or charge a nominal fee then its up to them and shouldn't be told what they SHOULD charge!!
Stop belly aching and get on with being competetive!!
I could make an analogy for the programmers and say that people who use tools such as MMF etc are being unfair to programmers who use C++ because they may be able to complete more games per year as a result.
So what,as with everything we all live and die by our end product!!
So just knuckle down and get on with your work and strive to be better than the next guy!!
That's democracy,capitalism.......hell that's just LIFE!!!!
Oh and Josh......Kudos and Good luck buddy!!!
All the best
Time for backstory?
I have an alternate source of income at the moment, which is at a local swim club. I coach and lifeguard about 30~ hours a week. This gives me decent income that I can pay website bills and the car bills with pretty decently. What I save goes directly into my equipment. My final purchase for this recent shopping burst is going to be Garritan Personal Orchestra, because that whole idea tickles my fancy. (You can go on an open a whole new debate about that software if you really feel like it, but I'm not trying to provoke anything. Suggestions are welcome though!)
Anyway, the music is what I would really enjoy doing full-time, but it's just not a possibilty. The days I request off from my local job I dedicate to working on music. I try to work in the night at the club when I do work, so that I can write music when my creative mind is at it's peak in the morning.
Thing's seem to work out hand in hand. This is why these rates are possible, and I'm not just trying to flaunt around my music 'for free so people don't think it's free.' Instead, I'd just like people to put there money where my experience is. I don't claim, nor think, that I'm any 'Fiat' of the music world. Quite the contrary (this may even shoo away buisness), but that's what I'm here to work on. And I figured that there is no better place to start than at an Indie Gamer community. Sure, I could raise my prices, but how many developer's here can afford $40. I try to provide solutions for those who aren't expecting great success. And the ultimate goal is, that maybe, with my music, their game will do better, and ultimately sell more. Making everybody happy, as I see it.
That is my, obviously, much greater than 2 cents. And yes, Melin and I do go back, and I still highly reccommend him to anybody who finds his samples and prices in their range.
My price WAS recently raised (but only to $25/$10 ($10 only usually being applied to 4min+)) to counter some of these arguments. But it does come to mind that I cannot please everybody (why not try, though?). For the sake of things, I still find $25/$10 insane, even though if you mention this thread you can sneak the $12/$4. And maybe, when I have the experience that Melin carries, I can really put some bang in my eigth notes.
Josh, my post didn't was a criticism... I was trying to explain a situation that every musician faced in his career (especially at the beginning).
I only stepped in about the prices discussion because when you manage a studio things are more complicated, and it is useful, I think, to explain the logic behind a price.
Or people would think that paying for quality custom scores is an heresy
Another example... I could be millionaire and with an architect degree. Since I have all the money to begin whatever enterprise without considering costs, investments, risks and so on I decide to design buildings for free.
That is cool but doesn't mean that all the other architects are crazy because they ask a salary.
Doesn't mean also that this is a market rule, competition and so on. You can't say to other architects: "Hey, focus on competition". Because it would be ridicolous. It's the "free or low price" logic that must be considered uncommon, or peculiar to specific situations, as when a musician like Josh is going to create a resume.
The problem in music industry is that P2P, music piracy and so on is going to create the idea that music MUST be for free. It is not.
And asking a very low price is not "competition"... is just the way a musician like Josh, at the beginning of his career, is following to create his resume and to show his talent to people.
That's all... and I approve it... no need for a flame war
This discussion has gone way over hand.
All the best to you josh, I hope you'll score a couple of deals in the near future.
Just a side note about Garritan Personal Orchestra. I don't want to start a software based discussion, but I would highly advise you not to buy it. Yes, it's cheap, but it's cheap shit. The samples don't sound authentic whatsoever, did you even listen to the demos on the site? The brass is horrible. A few articulations of some string instruments are nice, but that's about it. Unless you have another library to back it up, it's not worth your money and time. Now if you've got the processor power to back it up, I'd aim for EWQLSO any day. The silver version is even on sale:
The gold version is a bit pricy, but if you can afford it it's worth every penny.
This forum seriously needs some moderating, I think we should go back to messages having to be pre-approved before showing up to make sure it's on topic.
Most of the topics in this thread has nothing to do with people's work experiences with Josh but a bunch of OT stuff.