Eye of the TIGRS

[soniCron]

The Independent Game Rating System (TIGRS) is now open for submissions!

That's right, folks! Your requests were heard! Your desires were considered! Your wants were established, and the new version 2.0 has been released! (Worlds fastest development turnover.)

New features include

• Content based ratings, not age-based
• More informative design
• Fully implimented rating system, not just the graphics
• Fully automatic code generation for easy adoption (no more PSDs!)
• Easy-as-pie question based form for finding the right rating for your game!
• Link-back so the user can get even more information about the ratings seen on the box.
• Neat new site!

And a bunch of other stuff. Check it out. There are a couple pages "coming soon", but that's only because I've been working for the past 23 hours straight. (that's right, no breaks.) With the exception of the obvious stuff (stuff "coming soon", etc), I'd appreciate some serious feedback. I'd also like to see these on some of your sites by the time I get back on tomorrow! They'd BETTER be there! *snoooore....*

http://www.tigrs.org/

[Rainer Deyke]

I have couple objections:

1. Nudity is not sex. Depending on how it is presented, nudity can be completely nonsexual.

2. The system seems unnecessarily strict. For example, games as seemingly harmless as Pac-man and Asteroids technically qualify for Intense Violence (STRONG) - Depcition(s) of realistic or non-realistic characters commiting acts of violence that result in death and possibly bloodshed. However, there is a world of difference between those games and, say, Mortal Kombat.

3. Nitpick: depictions of extreme horror should in some cases get a strong rating.

[Adrian Lopez]

I notice you're now claiming trademark rights over the box design. I understand your motivation for doing that, but it's enough for me to steer clear of it. Out of curiosity, how similar would you say is too similar? Where is the balance to be struck between people's ability to provide similar information in a compact format without requiring your permission, and your own interests in promoting consistency and preventing confusion?

Aside from philosophical differences, I think the website looks good for the most part, but I absolutely hate the fonts you're using for both the website and the ratings boxes. I also think some of the images in the front page are a bit too colorful (and the fonts, once again, look horrible).

[Abscissa]

Might want to change "Racism" and "Genocide" to "Racism Reference " and "Genocide Reference". Just saying "Racism" makes it sound like the game itself promotes racist values.

Nitpicky: "Just like a dollar bill, these ratings have no inherent value": Maybe there's a better comparison than a dollar bill? I know what is meant by that (after thinking for a second), but I can imagine tons of people reading that and thinking "But of course it has value: it's value is $1, duh! What's this guy talking about? Is he making fun of the low exchange rate?"

[soniCron]

@Rainer Deyke: "Nudity is not sex. Depending on how it is presented, nudity can be completely nonsexual." I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, I'm quite uncertain as to where else it would fit. It is very clear that nudity is potentially offensive, at least in the US, so it's got to remain. I figured "Sex" was the most logical place for it.
"The system seems unnecessarily strict." It's modeled after all the major ratings agencies I could find on the 'net. While I agree that it's quite strict, I feel it needs to have rigid bounds or else there's no real purpose. As far as people claiming Pac-Man and Asteroids count as "Intense Violence", I'm gonna have to disagree. At best they may be described as "Animated Violence" (though I think you'd have to be a kook to even take it that far). I fail to see your reasoning behind such a connection between "Intense Violence" and old arcade games.

@Adrian Lopez: "I notice you're now claiming trademark rights over the box design. I understand your motivation for doing that, but it's enough for me to steer clear of it." I'm so sorry to hear that is a deterent for you. Why is it that you wish to steer clear? I'm merely protecting the likeness to hold the integrity of the design so there aren't 90 versions around. Seen Linux lately? While I respect the ability to go off and create one's own distro, there's far too much work being duplicated.
"Out of curiosity, how similar would you say is too similar?" Only similar enough to confuse someone. I have no financial interest in the design, just its integrity.

@Abscissa: "Might want to change "Racism" and "Genocide" to "Racism Reference " and "Genocide Reference". Just saying "Racism" makes it sound like the game itself promotes racist values." Funny you should say that! It's been that way the whole time, and at the last minute I decided to change it. Perhaps you're right.
"Nitpicky: "Just like a dollar bill, these ratings have no inherent value": Maybe there's a better comparison than a dollar bill?" That was text from the "old" site that I just copied and pasted. After running 23 hours without a break I was ready to quit (now I'm going on 26 hours!). There's a huge rewrite in store for that portion of the site.

Thank you all, so much, for the incredible feedback! It's been very helpful, and I hope to hear a lot more! It's great to hear so many ideas with the ratings. Always good to keep me on my toes. I'm also glad nobody has huge problems with a lot of the copy. I'm not the best writer in the world, so if anyone feels the need to pick that apart, I'd be incredibly greatful! Keep those comments, opinions, and ideas coming!

[Chris Evans]

I'll read through it all in a little bit and give some feedback, but yeah that Baby Kruffy font is driving me nuts also.

[Adrian Lopez]

I'm so sorry to hear that is a deterent for you. Why is it that you wish to steer clear? I'm merely protecting the likeness to hold the integrity of the design so there aren't 90 versions around.

Strictly for philosophical reasons. I am amazed by what you've accomplished in such a short period of time, but ultimately I am bothered by organizations like the ESRB and PEGI who claim trademark rights over letters/numbers inside a black or white rectangle. Sometimes the most elegant shapes and forms are precisely the ones that require permission (and, in some cases, payment) because somebody used them first.

"Out of curiosity, how similar would you say is too similar?" Only similar enough to confuse someone.

That's what I was assuming, but "confusion" is rather hard to define. On the other hand, I think it's great that you're providing this service to the indie community, at no charge to anybody. Web traffic isn't free, and that, at least, is something to be admired.

Anyway, I think it looks great, except for the fonts. I neglected to say why I don't like the fonts: The fonts are a bit too "childish" for my taste and, more significantly, they are so "thick" (bold) that adjacent letters become a bit confused. Other than that, good job.

[Rainer Deyke]

@Rainer Deyke: "Nudity is not sex. Depending on how it is presented, nudity can be completely nonsexual." I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, I'm quite uncertain as to where else it would fit. It is very clear that nudity is potentially offensive, at least in the US, so it's got to remain. I figured "Sex" was the most logical place for it.

Maybe rename the category name as "nudity/sex" instead of just "sex"?

"The system seems unnecessarily strict." It's modeled after all the major ratings agencies I could find on the 'net. While I agree that it's quite strict, I feel it needs to have rigid bounds or else there's no real purpose. As far as people claiming Pac-Man and Asteroids count as "Intense Violence", I'm gonna have to disagree. At best they may be described as "Animated Violence" (though I think you'd have to be a kook to even take it that far). I fail to see your reasoning behind such a connection between "Intense Violence" and old arcade games.

Pacman and Asteroids both include violence that leads to death. Most games do. In your rating system, as it stands, all violence that results in death in considered "intense", and gets a strong rating.

I'm really more concerned about my own game Feyna's Quest than about old arcade games. The game includes violence with (unrealistic cartoony) blood and (unrealistic cartoony) death, but is still fairly tame. In the ESRB, it would probably get a Teen rating ("Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood and/or infrequent use of strong language."). Under your system, it would get a strongest possible rating in violence.

[mahlzeit]

Sounds like someone is procrastinating... Anyway, is it possible to internationalize this rating scheme? (Which is why I proposed icons instead of text earlier...)

[Bad Sector]

Nice, i'll use it :-)

However, use PHP's PNG generation abilities to create a single LARGE image (which can be used for printing) instead of a bunch of small images.

[Bmc]

The ratings seems kind of complicated. It's a bunch text, something simple like the ESRB ratings would be better....

[Bluecat]

You could do the nudity/sex thing as:

Nudity
Sexual Content

[GBGames]

I just went through the Easy Way to make the rating:

3) What kind of language does the product contain?
Nothing offensive
Infrequent profanity
Frequent profanity

5c) If you answered "Yes" to question 3, do the acts of violence cause bloodshed?
Yes
No

5d) If you answered "Yes" to question 3, do the acts of violence cause death?
Yes
No

5e) If you answered "Yes" to question 3, are there depictions of mutilated body parts or the act of mutilating body parts?
Yes
No

5f) If you answered "Yes" to question 3, are the acts of violence sexually based?
Yes
No

I assume you mean question 5?

[soniCron]

...but ultimately I am bothered by organizations like the ESRB and PEGI who claim trademark rights over letters/numbers inside a black or white rectangle.

Hmmm... Maybe the legal information is unclear? The phrase "TIGRS Rating Box" is trademarked. If you'll notice, the actual box hasn't got a TM warning in it, because it is not trademarked. The box is copyrighted. I'm not going to have a problem with people distributing the box for any purpose they want, as long as it doesn't kill the box's integrity. If someone took it and made it blue instead of black, I don't care. But if someone takes the web content pack and uses those images for an entirely different rating system, that would be copyright infringement. They don't have the right to use something I created to fulfill their own contrary needs. But if they were to take the wording and create their own graphics, there's no harm, no foul.

That's what I was assuming, but "confusion" is rather hard to define.

Well, something like "TIGERS Rating Box" is confusing, but "BOBS Rating Box" is not, and therefore totally legal. Like I said, I just don't want 90 copies around (IGRS, GRS, etc.) confusing the hell out of people, especially when one game gets a totally different rating than another system would give it. If they were to design a black/white box design that didn't look nearly identical to this one, then I don't care. It's their perogative.

I'm really more concerned about my own game Feyna's Quest than about old arcade games. The game includes violence with (unrealistic cartoony) blood and (unrealistic cartoony) death, but is still fairly tame. In the ESRB, it would probably get a Teen rating ("Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood and/or infrequent use of strong language."). Under your system, it would get a strongest possible rating in violence.

Ok, I see your concern. I'll adjust the wording appropriately to include "extreme" or "intense". However, remember that "losing a ship" or mario "dying" aren't typically considered "scenes of death".

Anyway, is it possible to internationalize this rating scheme? (Which is why I proposed icons instead of text earlier...)

I tried for a long time to come up with a design for that, and got pretty close. But the thing that was interfering were the descriptors. While it's totally possible (and would be easy) to translate them into another language, graphical icons for the more specific features ("Animated Violence", "Animated Bloodshed", etc) would be near impossible. I am totally considering translated versions, though. At this stage, however, the vast majority of developers using this will be limited to english-only websites. When there is more of an international demand, I'll definately get on it, though!

However, use PHP's PNG generation abilities to create a single LARGE image (which can be used for printing) instead of a bunch of small images.

Right now the site is on a rather inexpensive server, so I don't want to kill it. However, in the near future (today? tomorrow?) "The Hard Way" will be up with a PSD people can use to make whatever sized boxes they want. It's entirely vector based, so resizing isn't a problem. In the future, when I've got to upgrade the server, I'll consider that single large image generation, however. Thanks for the suggestion!

I assume you mean question 5?

Thanks. After 23 hours of work and constant re-arranging questions, it got to a point where I just prayed I didn't forget things like that. I'll go fix it.

The ratings seems kind of complicated. It's a bunch text, something simple like the ESRB ratings would be better....

... and would quickly land me in jail! There was enough of a desire among developers that I remove that single rating and leave it entirely up to the audience to decide what is appropriate or not. The intention of the new system was to remove any arbitrary declaration of age-appropriateness from the ratings because that can vary drastically from location to location. As far as it being complicated: what part is complicated? The top 4 categories are pretty basic: sex, violence, language, and potentially offensive themes. Is there something different I should be doing?


@Nudity/Sex: After much thought and literally sleeping on it, I think I'll keep the "Sex" rating. Adding another rating just for Nudity seems a little beyond the purpose of the system. In addition, chances are the game will have either nudity or nudity and sex, so the "Sex" rating will remain unchanged. "Nudity" or "Brief Nudity" appearing in the descriptor box below will clarify any confusion. I sympathize with the desire to remove nudity from the "Sex" category, but I feel there's no better choice. (And seriously, how often do you see non-sexual nudity in games? )


@The font: While the font that you guys hate is only on the front page, which is really targeted at mom/dad stopping by to see what this rating system is, I very well may change it. If it's difficult to read, or causes any bit of integrity to be lost, it's not effective and should be changed.

Again, thanks for the suggestions, everyone! Keep 'em coming! And if any of you put the rating on your site, I would love to know about it!

[Rainer Deyke]

Ok, I see your concern. I'll adjust the wording appropriately to include "extreme" or "intense". However, remember that "losing a ship" or mario "dying" aren't typically considered "scenes of death".

I'm still not sure where Feyna's Quest fits in. It's definitely more violent than Super Mario Brothers or Pac-man. On the other hand, it's clearly less violent than Grand Theft Auto or Mortal Kombat or even Battlefield 1942 (which received a Teen ESRB rating). I wouldn't have any problem giving it a "moderate" rating for violence, but if the only options are "mild" and "strong", then either one could be misleading.

@Nudity/Sex: After much thought and literally sleeping on it, I think I'll keep the "Sex" rating. Adding another rating just for Nudity seems a little beyond the purpose of the system. In addition, chances are the game will have either nudity or nudity and sex, so the "Sex" rating will remain unchanged. "Nudity" or "Brief Nudity" appearing in the descriptor box below will clarify any confusion. I sympathize with the desire to remove nudity from the "Sex" category, but I feel there's no better choice.

How about renaming the "sex" category to "nudity" if the game only contains non-sexual nudity? It's messy, but I really don't want to support the inclusion of nudity under sex. It would feel like wearing the symbol of a religion that I don't believe in.

(And seriously, how often do you see non-sexual nudity in games? )

I can't say that I can think of even one example, but I can think of plenty of examples from movies. It's entirely possible that I will include non-sexual nudity in a future game. (Actually, I think nudity itself needs to be qualified. I assume you mean nudity of human or near-human characters, i.e. nude non-anthropomorphic animals, nude non-anthropomorphic robots, and non-anthropomorphic aliens don't count. What about nude babies? What about nude androgynous anthropomorphic characters?)

[Raptisoft]

Wow, this is a can of worms straight of hell now.

I liked it when it was EVERYONE, TEEN and ADULT. Those are so very easy to understand. And since it's voluntary, why not make it easy to use, since if someone's going to cheat, they're gonna cheat.

[soniCron]

I'm still not sure where Feyna's Quest fits in. It's definitely more violent than Super Mario Brothers or Pac-man. ... I wouldn't have any problem giving it a "moderate" rating for violence, but if the only options are "mild" and "strong", then either one could be misleading.

Well, I just played Feyna's Quest to see what you were talking about, and the best I can come up with is that it fits under "Animated Bloodhsed". "Animated Bloodshed" is a "Mild" rating. Is there a portion of the game that I missed? (I didn't play it very long.)

How about renaming the "sex" category to "nudity" if the game only contains non-sexual nudity?

How about I add "Brief Artistic Nudity" and "Artistic Nudity" to the "Themes" category?

(Actually, I think nudity itself needs to be qualified. I assume you mean nudity of human or near-human characters, i.e. nude non-anthropomorphic animals, nude non-anthropomorphic robots, and non-anthropomorphic aliens don't count. What about nude babies? What about nude androgynous anthropomorphic characters?)

I guess I'll have to word it a little more specifically, but I think it's pretty clear. A tree with breasts would constitute nudity, whereas a baby clearly wouldn't.

Example:
"Prolonged graphical depiction(s) of humanoid nudity, humanoid genetalia, or female humanoid breasts"

[soniCron]

I liked it when it was EVERYONE, TEEN and ADULT. Those are so very easy to understand. And since it's voluntary, why not make it easy to use, since if someone's going to cheat, they're gonna cheat.

I needed to remove "Everyone", "Teen", and "Adult" to avoid any potential copyright or trademark issues. In addition, there was quite an outcry (and justifiably so) to remove age-based ratings completely, since those are relative to each culture. Of course, a lot of the material is subjective, but not nearly as much as ages. In addition, I couldn't come up with anything better than Everyone, Teen, and Adult. All the good ones were taken by ESRB and I dare not tread on their ground. I'm already nervous "competing" with them as it stands.

What do you mean by "easy to use"? As it exists right now, it doesn't get much easier to get a rating. Is there something I'm not doing right?

EDIT: removed edit

[soniCron]

@John: One of the features you requested was one in which the visitor could click the rating to learn more about what the ratings mean. Without an organized system, how would I go about doing this? Also, there are no checks or balances to make sure the person is telling the truth (and I never intend there to be). I'd really hate to lose you because you think it's too draconian.

[Raptisoft]

Well, my issue right now is... okay, Hamsterball is a kid game. Does it have violence in it? Yes... and no. It's definitely cartoon violence, and yet I don't wanna slap even "Cartoon Violence" on the game because when you say "Cartoon Violence" people simply hear "violence without the blood."

It's easy for me to say "Kids" for Hamsterball, and for Chuzzle (violent explosions of cute hairy critters) and even Hap Hazard (what I'm working on)... yet when you give me all these options you send me into a paralyzing loop of accuracy.

I mean, Hamsterball and Chuzzle could even fall under "Crude Humor" for some of the player rankings you get, or some of the Chuzzle reactions to getting tickled... even though that's a stretch, this is the kind of thing you force me to think about, even though I never have before!

Also, I don't really want the word "sex" to appear on my website at all, even as a "SEX: NONE" rating on my game.

These ratings seem geared more toward Indies who have Grand Theft Auto: Independent in the works... I mean, is there even anyone on the board who falls into ANY of the categories except "animated violence" and "crude language?"

All I really want is a "KID SAFE" category. That's all I'll use in the foreseeable future, at least until I work the bugs out of Debbie Gibson Simulator.

[soniCron]

All I really want is a "KID SAFE" category. That's all I'll use in the foreseeable future, at least until I work the bugs out of Debbie Gibson Simulator.

Ok, so if the design generated as "Kid Safe" without any quantifiers when there were no objectionable qualities, that would be what you'd want? On top of that, you may be exactly right about words like "Sex" appearing when there may be a little violence. Anyone else feel this way?

[Raptisoft]

@John: One of the features you requested was one in which the visitor could click the rating to learn more about what the ratings mean. Without an organized system, how would I go about doing this? Also, there are no checks or balances to make sure the person is telling the truth (and I never intend there to be). I'd really hate to lose you because you think it's too draconian.

I'll stick to help work it out, because I think it's a good idea. Because if we don't do this, eventually the U.S. Congress will force us to anyway. It's coming, you know it.

Well... I really liked the simple letter system-- but I understand that you're afraid of ticking off the big boys. How about just add a Kid Safe category? We can just put

Voluntarily Rated KID SAFE
tigrs.org

I mean, that basically covers me all the way. And that's all parents care about. Then when they click through to www.tigrs.org/kidsafe, it tells them, like "This rating describes a game that is totally without sexual themes, strong langage (even hell and damn), or realistic violence that will give your kids nightmares, and is probably selling 1-2 copies a month on the web because you parents think it's better to put your kids in front of Sesame Street where your kids learn how to be communists instead of playing Hamsterball and learning about nature. If you find that this game violates the TIGRS rating, then please call Sonicron personally at 555-3472 and wash your head at him, and write a hot letter to Joseph Leiberman."

In fact, I think it should be that exact wording.

[Rainer Deyke]

Well, I just played Feyna's Quest to see what you were talking about, and the best I can come up with is that it fits under "Animated Bloodhsed". "Animated Bloodshed" is a "Mild" rating. Is there a portion of the game that I missed? (I didn't play it very long.)

You probably didn't get to the part of the game where you fight against human characters, and the demo on the website is doesn't include the latest changes that I've been working on the last couple of years (which arguably increase the level of violence), but the primary issue remains that Feyna's Quest contains violence which results in death. As do Pac-man, Asteroids, and Super Mario Brothers.

If you feel that Feyna's Quest should get away with a mild rating in violence for animated bloodshed, then I have no objections.

How about I add "Brief Artistic Nudity" and "Artistic Nudity" to the "Themes" category?

I have no objections, although I'm not sure if the word "artistic" really adds anything.

[soniCron]

How about just add a Kid Safe category?

Like so? (KID SAFE)

[soniCron]

... but the primary issue remains that Feyna's Quest contains violence which results in death. As do Pac-man, Asteroids, and Super Mario Brothers.

I disagree that Pac-Man, Asteroids, and Super Mario Bros would be deemed "violence resulting in death". But I'll change the wording to make that more clear.

If you feel that Feyna's Quest should get away with a mild rating in violence for animated bloodshed, then I have no objections.

Well, it's definately not realistic. But the bit I played was more violent and graphic than Mario or even Earthworm Jim. Of course, it's up to you to decide your own rating, so do what you think is best for your audience.

I have no objections, although I'm not sure if the word "artistic" really adds anything.

It will in the minds of American mothers. (Especially the jaded ones. "Oh, well, it's artistic. I'm avant garde." )

[papillon]

I mean, is there even anyone on the board who falls into ANY of the categories except "animated violence" and "crude language?"

Depends. Let's take my schoolgirls game, which is clearly in MY mind somewhere in the vicinity of a VERY tame PG-13.

Filling out the 'easy' form with a rough guess (not knowing what counts) I get STRONG sexual content, STRONG themes, in big scary red letters.

What constitutes "references to" sexual activity? The word sex is never used. No word relating to ANY sexual act is ever used. But (minor spoiler warning) one character mentions being worried that she could have gotten pregnant after a party. So she clearly HAD sex (Or is just really, really confused, which is also an option with teenagers.) Is that a reference to sexual activity? Does this deserve a STRONG RED WARNING of the same level as having actual high-res 3d realtime porn onscreen?

The other big red warning I get is for tobacco and alcohol. Yes! I am writing a game about teenagers! They mention booze and cigarettes! - Of course, the game bars you from playing a smoker and mentions how very rude it is to get your nasty smoke in the faces of unwilling victims (Can you tell I hate smoke? ) And while there is the possibility of drinking in the game, there are serious negative consequences for doing it.

So yes, there's alcohol use, but it's not really comparable to the sort of game you would expect to see a big red substance abuse warning label on.

[soniCron]

What constitutes "references to" sexual activity? The word sex is never used. No word relating to ANY sexual act is ever used. But (minor spoiler warning) one character mentions being worried that she could have gotten pregnant after a party. So she clearly HAD sex (Or is just really, really confused, which is also an option with teenagers.) Is that a reference to sexual activity?

No. Even if it was, nobody would be knocking on your door making you change it. Its for the developers to decide what best fits their game.

The other big red warning I get is for tobacco and alcohol. Yes! I am writing a game about teenagers! They mention booze and cigarettes! ... And while there is the possibility of drinking in the game, there are serious negative consequences for doing it.

I've adjusted the system (not publicly) to not increase severity of the "Themes" category if only "Mild" descriptors are used. Only a "Strong" descriptor will be able to elevate the "Themes" category to "Strong". And that would include consumption of alcohol. Now, with the exception of allowing the player to drink alcohol, your ratings have just been reduced to "Mild".


On to the alcohol consumption. Good or bad, it's in there. The reason there are descriptors is to quantify why a particular category rated strongly. It's up to the downloaded to decide if it's offensive to them. That said, if enough people think that alcoholic consumption should be kicked down a notch, let me know.

Nobody has to use this system. It was designed so developers can let their audience know about potentially offensive materials before they download the game. While the system does need tweaking and massaging, I think the thruth of the matter is that none(?) of you have been in front of a ratings board before. And the funny thing is, that ratings board is you! Let me ask a question. What would the bible be rated?

[Raptisoft]

Like so? (KID SAFE)

Yeah, that looks pretty good!

[Raptisoft]

Don't forget to add a "topless sorority girl pillow fight" category for Papillion, too.

[papillon]

Nobody has to use this system. It was designed so developers can let their audience know about potentially offensive materials before they download the game.

This is understood, it's just that it doesn't currently seem to be all that useful to anyone, so we're trying to find better ways to express.

I *have* put a vague disclaimer on that particular game, just to try and give people a headsup that it's not quite a little-kids-best-friends game to hand to your eight year old. But because the context is so important, I wouldn't want to put a generic "sex, drugs, and rock'and'roll!" label on it that might give someone the wrong impression.

While I understand that you can't use their age rankings for various reasons, I would be happier having something like a big "Teen" or "Not Quite Everyone" rating on it that could be clicked for more information and then gave a breakdown of why, exactly, the game was aimed at teenagers.



EDIT: Drat, and I don't have the right technology for a good pillow fight! Who's got the 3d and the physics models? C'mon. Extra bonus points if you make someone step on the pizza!